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OT: Graphics Card or O/S upgrade

From: John Aldrich 
------------------------------------------------------
Our marketing guy is having some issues trying to do some 3D rendering in
Photoshop. He says it keeps giving him "out of memory" errors awhile after
he starts trying to render something. His computer is running on a 64-bit
CPU (Pentium D) but running on a 32-bit O/S (XP Pro).

 

Would upgrading the O/S to a 64-bit O/S and adding more RAM fix the problem
or is it more likely to be helped by upgrading the video card? The video
card he has right now is a GeForce 7300LE with 512 Mb of graphics memory.
Would upgrading that help more than an O/S and memory upgrade?

 

He says everything else works fine, except for Photoshop.

 

Thanks!

 

John-AldrichThread-Count

 


=============================================================== From: "Alex Smith (K4RNT)" ------------------------------------------------------ That would help *everything* to upgrade the RAM and the graphics card. Depending on how much your budget is, and if it's worth it to your company, you may want to look into the NVIDIA Quadro graphics cards - it's a professional grade graphics solutions that's specifically tailored towards Photoshop 3D rendering. http://www.nvidia.com/object/builtforadobepros.html On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 14:51, John Aldrich w= rote: rors awhile after em

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ You left out the most important bit of data - well, two of them actually - how much RAM does he currently have (you said how much video RAM, but not system RAM) - and what version of Photoshop is he using. Assuming you're maxed out at 4GB for your 32 bit system, then upgrading the OS and adding more system RAM would be the biggest benefit, because you're not likely to find a 4 GB video card for under $800 - and I doubt it would work with his machine. You could, however, likely double the system RAM to 8GB for under $200. Plus, unlocking the power of both cores (the latest Photoshop - CS5 - is 64-bit by default) would increase performance as well. And, besides all that - unless I misunderstand things - a 32-bit OS won't recognize more than 4 GB of RAM *total* - so having 4 GB of system RAM and another .5 GB of Video RAM doesn't help. That extra .5 GB won't ever be used. The OS just can't handle it. Now - that all said, if your system isn't maxed out to 4GB of System RAM yet... that would be the first thing to fix. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - Februar= y 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 1:51 PM, John Aldrich wrote: after em

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:51:19 -0500 "John Aldrich" wrote: This is the classic "What exactly did the dialog box say?", "It says it didn't work" error report. How much RAM in the machine right now? How much is being used for other processes? At a guess, he's running a 32 bit O/S, so the machine has half a gig of RAM, and if you goose the machine to 2 gig it'll work fine. But you really don't have enough information (let alone have given us enough information) to make a good guess on this. I mean, hell, it's a marketing guy, there's a good chance he's trying to run Photoshop on his LG flip phone. Dan

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Hehe... :-) Actually, this machine as 3 Gigs of RAM on XP PRo 32bit. The Graphics card has 512 Mb on it alone. The "Marketing" guy also is a carpet design guy and has a degree from SCAD (Savannah College of Art and Design) and he's pretty computer savvy for a non-IT person. :-)

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I wouldn't expect a video card related error to come up as "out of memory". You don't mention how much RAM is currently installed. You can install up to 4 GB w/o bothering with the OS upgrade (and I use that term lightly, there is no such thing as an upgrade from x86 to x64, unless OSX does something special). If he's not already there, you might want to start there. If he's already at 4GB, have fun with the new load :) Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk15Sp0ACgkQABP1RO+tr2Sa7ACaAxF+vLQdQNp+gy8wNRCed+UG TX8An32Xw52WIWHKM2TvVvGO+lCQeyQO =QoKs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 How much free disk space on his photoshop "scratch disk"? Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk15SxUACgkQABP1RO+tr2Q1MQCggU/n/Rh1u3wh8X34gXvg0Qz0 BmoAoKugTCorslDNwMu1seTqigmf1gV5 =PMj8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ "Scratch disk"??? I've just about decided it's time to get him a new workstation... ie a Dell Precision. Gonna cost about $1500 +/- to get it configured... that doesn't include a new copy of Photoshop 64-bit, either...

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ would have said scratch disk, not memory. But, it would be easy to test that one. Get a bare drive and see if that helps. $99 for a 2TB USB scratch drive is alot cheaper than a $2000 new system... - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Erik Hanson ------------------------------------------------------ Probably not the scratch disk, but you might want to check how much VRAM the 3D functionality is using. In Photoshot Edit > Preferences > 3D and bring the VRAM slider down a bit, could be his card doesn't like handing off 95%. Also... update those drivers.

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Taking a stab... out of memory in Windows usually means one of two things -- out of physical memory, or out of room for virtual memory (ie, hdd space). I haven't touched it in many moons, just stabbing at places he could be running out of either of the above. Please excuse my disclaimer lacking any real knowledge of any remotely recent version of the product in question as well :) Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk15ppAACgkQABP1RO+tr2SexQCffhk/NsS54+xHEXcgH52AA/DE yIAAoKyAS79z61U1vYW71Bz81mOyeyK4 =w+1Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Aaron Welch ------------------------------------------------------ I can get these cheaper with similar specs. I had a few Precision 390s a fe= w weeks back. -AW l=20 =20

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Kewl... I'll see about sending you an email off-list with the specs of what we were looking at.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:09:38 -0500 John Aldrich wrote: What's your capital cost per worker for the folks on the floor with the looms, what's your capital cost for this guy, and how many more times does he make than your loom operators? Not saying you should go out and spend fifty grand on a workstation for him, but Windows XP suggests that he's due for an upgrade. Dan (Yeah, I know, the stuff depreciates at different rates. However...)

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ One of my biggest gripes about IT management is that they hold to this idea that computers are capital investments. The initial outlay should be as low as possible and depreciated over a fixed number of years according to an IRS schedule. If a worker's productivity is dependent on the capability of the computer they operate (i.e., they are a computer programmer, a graphic designer, a data analyst, etc), then the computer is not a capital investment, it's a strategic outlay. You want to maximize that person's productivity. That's what you pay them to do. What's really crazy is that you can easily say "spend an amount equal to X% of the person's annual salary on hardware and software annually". Pick a relatively low number: 10%. If the person is a programmer, that means you should be spending between $5,000 and $10,000 per YEAR on hardware and software to support that person. This outlay is strategic in that it increases the benefits to the company of the $50,000-$100,000 per year that is being spent to keep that person in a chair. I would suggest its reasonable to factor in IT support costs and network services but but that percentage to 20% or even 25%. There was a time where the strategic outlay had to be handled differently. In the 90s when I worked in games, the graphic designers used SGI systems running Alias/Wavefront. Those systems typically cost a little more than the designers made in a year. And there were annual maintenance agreements that were on the order of 5% of the designers' salaries. But that's not even close to the case anymore. If I were managing any kind of tech team, I would argue for spending an amount equal to 25% of each employee's salary on systems and software and another 25% on training. You're already spending 100% just to have that person fill a chair, why not spend more and make sure you get your money's worth. But I also think in terms of lost opportunity - which many firms, especially those entrenched in an existing business model like carpet making - don't really worry about. And as for depreciation... For people who use computers for 10 hours out of every 8 hour work day (!), the hardware and software needs to be treated like pens and paper. Like office supplies. -Eric

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ We just bought several nice dual-head systems for about $1k each. Including monitors. That's an expense.. not "capital investment".

=============================================================== From: Dee Holtsclaw ------------------------------------------------------ I think the real problem here is that the IRS is completely out of touch with reality on their depreciation rules WRT technology. Computer equipment and software must be depreciated over a 5 year period regardless of it's true effective lifetime (for example -- tax and accounting software generally must be updated or repurchased every year). Sure, you can expense up to a certain amount under Section 179 but it's still a bit ridiculous. With this in mind, if the upper management people are accountants, they're going to be looking at equipment and software from a depreciation standpoint (as a capital investment) and therein lies the problem.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Very Insightful.Chad.=20 The Graphics guy is running 32 xp?=20 geesh.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Chad Smith" =20 To: jaldrich@blueridgecarpet.com, "CHUGALUG" =20 Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 3:03:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern=20 Subject: Re: [Chugalug] OT: Graphics Card or O/S upgrade=20 You left out the most important bit of data - well, two of them actually - = how much RAM does he currently have (you said how much video RAM, but not s= ystem RAM) - and what version of Photoshop is he using.=20 Assuming you're maxed out at 4GB for your 32 bit system, then upgrading the= OS and adding more system RAM would be the biggest benefit, because you're= not likely to find a 4 GB video card for under $800 - and I doubt it would= work with his machine. =C2=A0You could, however, likely double the system = RAM to 8GB for under $200. =C2=A0Plus, unlocking the power of both cores (t= he latest Photoshop - CS5 - is 64-bit by default) would increase performanc= e as well. =C2=A0And, besides all that - unless I misunderstand things - a = 32-bit OS won't recognize more than 4 GB of RAM *total* - so having 4 GB of= system RAM and another .5 GB of Video RAM doesn't help. =C2=A0That extra .= 5 GB won't ever be used. =C2=A0The OS just can't handle it.=20 Now - that all said, if your system isn't maxed out to 4GB of System RAM ye= t... that would be the first thing to fix.=20 - Chad W Smith=20 "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - Februar= y 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya=20 On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 1:51 PM, John Aldrich < jaldrich@blueridgecarpet.co= m > wrote:=20 Our marketing guy is having some issues trying to do some 3D rendering in P= hotoshop. He says it keeps giving him =E2=80=9Cout of memory=E2=80=9D error= s awhile after he starts trying to render something. His computer is runnin= g on a 64-bit CPU (Pentium D) but running on a 32-bit O/S (XP Pro).=20 Would upgrading the O/S to a 64-bit O/S and adding more RAM fix the problem= or is it more likely to be helped by upgrading the video card? The video c= ard he has right now is a GeForce 7300LE with 512 Mb of graphics memory. Wo= uld upgrading that help more than an O/S and memory upgrade?=20 He says everything else works fine, except for Photoshop.=20 Thanks!=20 John-AldrichThread-Count

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 That's not 100% accurate in general, but true in x86 WinXP. Other OSes are able to make use of CPU extensions to address more than 4 GB, and you don't lose 1:1 video memory from system memory, if the video card has it's own memory. You lose areas of memory so the BIOS can address the cards (hence the reason HBA and other adapter cards also use this memory), not the memory on the cards. Agreed, but I think he's close to his 4GB already, and I think he's seen the effort/benefit ratio of upgrading the current vs buying new... Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk16n5MACgkQABP1RO+tr2Rv7wCeJ6kHEVZY6hXfZIIDVDipYoUk TRgAoIkeo4YaV9isYm/qBzlCJPRb9Gin =1NOZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Phil Sieg ------------------------------------------------------ lemme chime in here based on experience: Video ram and upgraded video cards have VIRTUALLY no beneficial effect = on the performance of photoshop in real world use. Read carefully... = REAL WORLD being operative. Video cards are built to enable high speed = rendering of complex fast moving objects with multiple shaders and other = such "reality enhancing" techniques. Photoshop images are typically "static" and the needed horsepower is = used for rending "filters" and effects" to the image as close to = instantly as possible. This is all "heavy lifting" work that goes on at = the main CPU. Multiple cores has the greatest effect, followed by = greater amounts of RAM. Video cards can however have beneficial effects when using to render = digital video using programs like "After Affects" and "Premiere". This = is because of the similarities to rendering video game frames for = output... MOTION vs STATIC. Spending more than $100 on a video card in a photoshop production system = is a study in the principal of "diminishing returns". But running photoshop on anything other than a MAC seems silly to me as = well... why not save the bucks and run GimpShop since PC's are "gimped" = to begin with in matters of graphic design. Buy him a $2000 27" iMac and CS5 and see what a happy guy he becomes! my 2=A2 worth... Phil Sieg President snapfon www.snapfon.com office: 423.535.9968 x123 mobile: 423.331.0725 fax: 423.265.9820 Very Insightful.Chad. The Graphics guy is running 32 xp? geesh. =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: jaldrich@blueridgecarpet.com, "CHUGALUG" Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 3:03:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] OT: Graphics Card or O/S upgrade You left out the most important bit of data - well, two of them actually = - how much RAM does he currently have (you said how much video RAM, but = not system RAM) - and what version of Photoshop is he using. Assuming you're maxed out at 4GB for your 32 bit system, then upgrading = the OS and adding more system RAM would be the biggest benefit, because = you're not likely to find a 4 GB video card for under $800 - and I doubt = it would work with his machine. You could, however, likely double the = system RAM to 8GB for under $200. Plus, unlocking the power of both = cores (the latest Photoshop - CS5 - is 64-bit by default) would increase = performance as well. And, besides all that - unless I misunderstand = things - a 32-bit OS won't recognize more than 4 GB of RAM *total* - so = having 4 GB of system RAM and another .5 GB of Video RAM doesn't help. = That extra .5 GB won't ever be used. The OS just can't handle it. Now - that all said, if your system isn't maxed out to 4GB of System RAM = yet... that would be the first thing to fix. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - = February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 1:51 PM, John Aldrich = wrote: Our marketing guy is having some issues trying to do some 3D rendering = in Photoshop. He says it keeps giving him =93out of memory=94 errors = awhile after he starts trying to render something. His computer is = running on a 64-bit CPU (Pentium D) but running on a 32-bit O/S (XP = Pro). =20 Would upgrading the O/S to a 64-bit O/S and adding more RAM fix the = problem or is it more likely to be helped by upgrading the video card? = The video card he has right now is a GeForce 7300LE with 512 Mb of = graphics memory. Would upgrading that help more than an O/S and memory = upgrade? =20 He says everything else works fine, except for Photoshop. =20 Thanks! =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Billy ------------------------------------------------------ I had this discussion with our weblogic admin. True, PAE extensions allow A 32bit os/box to see >4gb of ram, however you ar= e limited to the virtual memory of the entire system per process. In windows= that is typically 2gb/2gb for user/kernel split. In Linux, you can do a 2/2= or configure 3/1. So in reality, memory will show >4gb, but each process ca= n only see 4gb, and of that 4gb it can only map up to its split (2 or 3 gb) w= ithout some virtual memory voodoo which I'm unfamiliar with. So yes, on a PAE system with 64gb of ram, you can run theoretically 16 proce= sses that can each "see" 4gb. However, that doesn't do beans for your Photoshop process in 32 bit that is r= unning out of memory. Thus, that's why you need 64 bit. To tie to weblogic, replace Photoshop with JVM. --b

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Windows limits each user process to 2GB, hard coded. Such Voodoo does not exist under Windows, and I'm unfamiliar with any such voodoo in mainstream use. I believe John mentioned later that it was actually not an "out of memory" error, but that may have been off-list.... And I'm with Phil, what exactly are you working on that 2GB won't cut it? :) Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk18CbgACgkQABP1RO+tr2RDvQCfRp5J056mnH5DRj2lIlVUTDhe MRUAoJoiIjYO2Vb04EFOFPTj8CXGhypr =HlYx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ What about the /3GB switch? Such Voodoo does not exist under Windows, and I'm unfamiliar with any What about this? http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2004/08/10/211890.aspx

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Reserved for Server OS I believe, my apologies for not specifying. Semantics aside... http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366912%28VS.85%29.aspx Which is why I believe the blog author had to read in windows/pages and not the entire allocated amount? Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk18GekACgkQABP1RO+tr2TOhACeKueTOEahkSGsnjeuWIcBW7Et g0cAn17tXM5xfK1esuclDM4hyMZvBY84 =6Pwy -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ "The */3GB* parameter is supported on Windows Server 2003, Windows XP, and Windows 2000. On Windows Vista and later versions of Windows, use the * IncreaseUserVA* element in BCDEdit." -- http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff556232.aspx Not sure what to think about the other thing as it looks like voodoo to me. But I have used the 3GB switch before on XP.

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ What we are doing is taking an existing room scene and layering in a picture of our carpet. We did find the scratch disk settings as well as the limit on how much RAM PS can use. We upped the amount of RAM PS can use and it may have resolved it. And yes, the error is not 'out of memory' so much as it is "cannot continue" and it just bombs PS out.

=============================================================== From: Billy ------------------------------------------------------ Sounds like QA dropped the ball on that ;-)

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Well, in my defense, I was just reporting what the user *told* me the error was. ;-) Yeah, I should have probed a bit more deeply and asked them to read the error to me. :-)

=============================================================== From: Billy ------------------------------------------------------ No, I wasn't referring to you. PS shouldn't crash when it runs out of virtua= l memory. It should at the minimum give a meaningful error. At the most, it s= hould interrupt the current operation without affecting the project (current= graphic). --b r=20

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Ahh... Ok. Gotcha. Yeah... Adobe's programmers should have programmed better "error" messages into the system. :-)

=============================================================== From: Erik Hanson ------------------------------------------------------ This seems an appropriate time to share a link: http://log.maniacalrage.net/tagged/cscr

=============================================================== From: Aaron welch ------------------------------------------------------ That was just awesome... -AW

=============================================================== From: Cynicalgeek ------------------------------------------------------ John, You never mentioned what version of Photoshop he is using. Which version is it?

=============================================================== From: Erik Hanson ------------------------------------------------------ I think the 3d functionality he's talking about is cs3+.

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ CS3.

=============================================================== From: Billy ------------------------------------------------------ True, but QA should have seen the issue before it shipped. I doubt that beha= vior would pass an "out of virtual memory" use case. --b