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Does the net Kill switch already exist?

From: Rod-Lists 
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Styles (local radio host) claims it already exists. I the monitoring boxes are in the field. But kill switches? 

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ I don't listen to talking heads however they skew politically. I only listen to BBC World Service, NPR, CBC, SRG SSR, e.g. organizations that aren't op-ed pieces and have requirements or dignity to remain neutral. So let me be the first one to say that an op-ed from these people will be something I take with a shaker full of salt. That said, it's acknowledged fact that AT&T and the NSA still operate a dark roomwhere they have OC-8s full of interwebs going through them. This is NOT the only transoceanic point of presence. In order for all ISPs to have this capability (to our immediate knowledge) requires a law and capital to develop a Emergency Alert-like system that's being proposed by the Senate that would fire off the BGPs or whatever vogon magic happens that would strip us of our tubes.

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ These would be the sniffing boxes/closets I refer to, not kill switch. Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Zach Gibbens ------------------------------------------------------ at

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ I don't think all the Tier 1s and Tier 2s would be willing to go along with a nationwide BGP re-routing at request as it affects their ability to make money. How many execs would willingly accept an order from the federal government to stop making money without any incentive to punish disobedience? They need a law first. One that we can fight.

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ While the Tier One and 2s may not go along with it, the goverment may be able to shutdown routes outside the country People LOVE focusing on 'laws' but in reality the government does plenty without laws, I wouldn't expect them to make a law before having the ability.

=============================================================== From: Bret McHone ------------------------------------------------------ Isn't there a form of communications using data channels on a Ham radio? I think I remember hearing about something like that years ago since I'm not a radiophile.

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ But if we prove they did it *without* a law, we can claim they violated constitutional amendments, RICO, property laws, and so forth. A law announces intent that they have the capability (when we know they already do), and gives us accountability in choosing if we want to challenge it or not.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:55:57 -0500 Bret McHone wrote: There are a couple of techniques for doing this. The HAM guys (and, yes, they've all been guys) I've talked to have been extremely resistant to data on HAM, and especially packet driven data on HAM (because relaying stuff around has some deep philosophical implications). Which is why my license sits mostly unused. Dan

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Trust me, laws are merely a formality now days. Now good luck PROVING they did it without a law. Bret: There is a form of data transfer using Ham radio or HF.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ /ponders the implications of a shortwave global hotspot..... (don't shortwaves bounce off the ionosphere or something and wrap around the planet?) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ No, thats longwave HF.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:44:21 -0500 Cameron Kilgore wrote: So as you think about the notion of a "Kill Switch", think about what sort of traffic different factions involved in the net might want to kill. AT&T would love an excuse to force people to use Yahoo for a week (or more). Comcast has similar alliances (as has recently been shown on their struggles with NetFlix shows. So in envisioning how such a thing might go down, don't think about it so much as "clip the cables at the overseas links", but as "What if someone went to AT&T with a court order that let them reroute Facebook or Twitter traffic onto some Yahoo service? What might that look like?" I mean, sure there's the notion of Treasury Agents taking over a NOC with guns drawn, but more likely is the way that systems evolve to serve the interests of those who are running them, and how maybe there are some research funds spent here and there with various execs seeing that they've got the chance to blame outages on competing content services on national security... Dan

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ /ponders the implications of a longwave HF global hotspot.... - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ The only problem there Chad is that HF is terribly prone to atmospherics, across a country you can recieve and send pretty well, as long as you have a good antenna, but across the world it all depends on the atmosphere

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ Are we talking about high latency, packet loss, or both?

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ Too many players.... Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ And I love how people dismiss the practical application of their theory. How exactly do you propose the US government "shut down routes outside the country"? That's handled by the routers of everyone connected to the Internet speaking BGP. I'm pretty sure our Prez calling up and asks them to shut down their Internet would have a better chance of success. Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ HF has a fairly high latency, it would not be ideal for large data transfers

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ citation needed.... Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ No citable source available. You caught me, was it worth it? -Cameron Sent via an Android phone citation needed.... Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ I just don't believe what happened in Egypt could happen here. Short of cutting a bunch of undersea cables, but the fallout from that would be catastrophic world-wide. And I don't believe the Government has the technical capability otherwise, nor the authority to order every US ISP to no longer accept certain routes. And the speculation as to who would defy such an order makes for interesting imagination :) Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Give me a minute - I'll put something on Wikipedia for you... - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ I see the youth of this country unite in revolt like never thought possible. But yes, this is exactly why the Comcast/NBC merger is so dangerous. Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ interesting imagination :) Google set up a phone line for protesters in Egypt to get the word out, so you know who would be first...

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Rtty, packet radio and others. But ham has commercial restrictions . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bret McHone" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 10:55:57 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Does the net Kill switch already exist? Isn't there a form of communications using data channels on a Ham radio? I think I remember hearing about something like that years ago since I'm not a radiophile. While the Tier One and 2s may not go along with it, the goverment may be able to shutdown routes outside the country People LOVE focusing on 'laws' but in reality the government does plenty without laws, I wouldn't expect them to make a law before having the ability. I don't think all the Tier 1s and Tier 2s would be willing to go along with a nationwide BGP re-routing at request as it affects their ability to make money. How many execs would willingly accept an order from the federal government to stop making money without any incentive to punish disobedience? They need a law first. One that we can fight.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Every ham has his or her favorite mode. A lot voice folk hate the data mode especially on shortwave. Well all hate commercial pagers on all bands. But their are die hard digi fans in the ham community. PFSK seems to be the hot tech right now. Not alot spread spectrum out there tho. Not enough hams with that kind of tech know how. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Lyke" To: chugalug@chugalug.org Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 10:59:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Does the net Kill switch already exist? On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 10:55:57 -0500 Bret McHone wrote: There are a couple of techniques for doing this. The HAM guys (and, yes, they've all been guys) I've talked to have been extremely resistant to data on HAM, and especially packet driven data on HAM (because relaying stuff around has some deep philosophical implications). Which is why my license sits mostly unused. Dan

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Short wave does skip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ don't forget phase and polarization shifting. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kilgore" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 11:22:57 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Does the net Kill switch already exist? Are we talking about high latency, packet loss, or both? The only problem there Chad is that HF is terribly prone to atmospherics, across a country you can recieve and send pretty well, as long as you have a good antenna, but across the world it all depends on the atmosphere /ponders the implications of a longwave HF global hotspot.... - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya No, thats longwave HF. /ponders the implications of a shortwave global hotspot..... (don't shortwaves bounce off the ionosphere or something and wrap around the planet?) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ And you get into bandwidth & spectrum issues. each band has different data characteristics. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Kraus" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 11:34:04 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Does the net Kill switch already exist? HF has a fairly high latency, it would not be ideal for large data transfers Are we talking about high latency, packet loss, or both? The only problem there Chad is that HF is terribly prone to atmospherics, across a country you can recieve and send pretty well, as long as you have a good antenna, but across the world it all depends on the atmosphere /ponders the implications of a longwave HF global hotspot.... - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya No, thats longwave HF. /ponders the implications of a shortwave global hotspot..... (don't shortwaves bounce off the ionosphere or something and wrap around the planet?) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ 'shortwave' is still used to reffer to HF, which has anything BUT a short wave, in fact it has some of the longest waveforms out there. So yes 'shortwave' skips.

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ I'm still grey here...how the fuck do we implement any of this and use it? I must be odd man out having never been in on amateur radio.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ I think we need to take a page from the oscar group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSCAR Lob servers into orbit. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kilgore" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 12:56:29 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Does the net Kill switch already exist? I'm still grey here...how the fuck do we implement any of this and use it? I must be odd man out having never been in on amateur radio. don't forget phase and polarization shifting. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kilgore" < ghostfreeman@gmail.com > To: "CHUGALUG" < chugalug@chugalug.org > Sent: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 11:22:57 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Does the net Kill switch already exist? Are we talking about high latency, packet loss, or both? The only problem there Chad is that HF is terribly prone to atmospherics, across a country you can recieve and send pretty well, as long as you have a good antenna, but across the world it all depends on the atmosphere /ponders the implications of a longwave HF global hotspot.... - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya No, thats longwave HF. /ponders the implications of a shortwave global hotspot..... (don't shortwaves bounce off the ionosphere or something and wrap around the planet?) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Basically.... Hook up a modem to the mic input of a HF Radio and transmit in bursts at certain time intervals to allow for recieving. OR use two seperate channels, one for recieving and one for transmitting

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Compared to "medium wave"(american AM) or ELF, it is short. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely

=============================================================== From: Kenneth Ratliff ------------------------------------------------------ be able to shutdown routes outside the country plenty without laws, I wouldn't expect them to make a law before having = the ability. Considering alot of those pipes are private property, the federal = government would be setting itself up for massive backlash if they tried = to seize the pipes. This is one area they'd have to legislate their way = around. Going after BGP to stop the internet in the US is simply not as easy as = everyone thinks. Sure, there are a few tricks you can pull here and = there, but BGP is a pretty flexible protocol, it'll bend, but it's = pretty hard to break it. If I was trying to effectively take down the internet, I'd go after DNS. = It'd be alot easier to have some private conversations with the = companies that run the internal root servers, as well as leaning on the = countries that have external ones. Rather than killing the internet = entirely, I'd rather have the ability to make a few phone calls, have = some folks at the root level change what servers the roots refer US IP = address space to, and then have a field day using the internet as my own = personal propaganda machine.

=============================================================== From: Zach Gibbens ------------------------------------------------------ ke s