I love Chrome, but now I hate Google

From: Cameron Kilgore 
------------------------------------------------------
Google drops H.264 from
Chrome

So if you're using Chrome or Chromium, and you want to watch the majority of
 content on the web, you're back to using Flash. Last I checked, it
still sucked on my laptop, Mac OS X, and Linux!

Despite H.264 not being "open" or "free"  the single, accepted standard was
the largest push for HTML  and it could have remained so until WebM*
was mature enough to supercede it. Now, nobody has any real incentive to
upgrade from Flash to . Google can afford to include H.264 in Chrome
and Android, they've just chosen not to so they can claim control over a
small part of online video.

I sometime wonder what's the fucking point of having new web standards when
we can't agree on any to begin with. I bet Adobe is loving this.

*Or Dirac, which has been around for years and nobody's been sued over

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ Which is exactly *why* they dropped it.... Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ I used the quotes, I was pretty "aware" of that and have been for some time. Every time I talk about HTML5, I caution about the video codec issue. It's been the main reason I haven't moved completely over to HTML5. Sadly, the largest providers of mobile devices (Nokia, Apple) haven't signaled their intent to support WebM (Nokia was pivotal in sinking Theora from the original HTML5 spec). No wide support on mobile means that content producers will still need to pay to distribute H.264 for these devices alongside WebM. Nothing has changed for content producers (ex: me) except the amount of effort needed to get content on all platforms and the costs henceforth related (I can either pay to be covered on all platforms, or simply not provide said content). Which means that HTML5 Video is the minefield it was a year ago. And I doubt that will change when it becomes a final spec in 2022.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:43:14 -0500 Cameron Kilgore wrote: H.264 may be "open", as in the specs are out there for everyone to build their own decoder and encoder, but it's very very far from "free". There are a whole lot of patent encumbrances that mean that you've gotta pay licensing dollars if you ship code that uses it. ffmpeg seems to be able to get away with it for now, but if you read through their mailing lists they're hunkering down for a fight in the U.S. And Google's also smart enough to play the meta-game. Destroy Flash too quickly without the tech to replace it and you give a huge win to Apple. Dan

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Open / standard - as one who speaks for the typical end user (and compared to the technical experts on this list, I *am* an end user) - those words mean jack squat to me. I could care less if format XYZ is endorsed by the Worldwide Internet Standards Empire or not. I just want the stuff to work. I have never, and will never measure progress by the REMOVAL of functionality, regardless of the reason. But *especially* when those reasons are idiotic political ones, or back-room corporate strategy ones. (Caveat - removing bloat to streamline code is not a good reason either - making a program run significantly faster, ok, that's a reason. Just having a smaller footprint isn't a reason either, not with super-cheap storage. Also, if removing feature A also solves bugs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 - ok. Or if feature D is removed and features M N and O are added, alright. But it seems to me that in this case, they just removed a feature. The application isn't faster, but actually slower, as a result. No other features were added in its place. And no bugs were squashed.) Not happy with this move by Google - not at all. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ Because none of your technical expert friends spent the time to explain to you why it is important. One of the easiest examples I can think of is how government entities decide to publish documents and forms. Do you think it correct that these entities force you to possess a $500+ Office Suite to view that information? Oh yeah, and the whole apathy thing that keeps creeping into every facet of everyone's lives these days. Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I actually do know what an open standard is, but I still don't really care. Pragmatically speaking, it makes no difference to me. And, I've never had to buy a $500 office suite to view a document from the government. No one has. OpenOffice.org exists, AbiWord exists. Free downloadable viewers exist. And pretty much any office suite on the planet can open a Word file. There are dozens of PDF viewers/readers, some built directly into operating systems. The only format I've really ever had problems with is Publisher files, and still there are free online converters that make easy to open PDFs for me. But none of this actually applies to what we are talking about. We're talking about videos. Last I checked, Washington wasn't handing out video tax forms. Besides, why are you upset about having to buy a $500 office suite? (Which you don't - MS Office is only $150 bucks anyway, but again, you'd never have to buy it to open a Word document.) The government shouldn't make you buy a $500 computer to view that file. They should give you one, right? I mean, everything should be FREE! - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ Yeah, back to the apathy, which is the real root of the problem to begin with. Really? There wasn't a legal battle fought in a northern state within the last 3 years regarding this very topic? All of that is awesome, yet none of those are ever mentioned as an option to view those files. Nor are they usually capable of opening them with all formatting intact, which can be a very important thing if this is a form that has to be submitted back. Well, we're talking about (open) standards, and why they are important. They do relate, although that must be a big jump for you, since you like to zero in on little things and beat them to undeath. I'm not upset for myself, I'm a "technical expert" that knows many ways to open and manipulate said forms and documents. I have never paid for a MS Office component or suite (work has supplied or I use something else) Oh, and here's a link to your $500 Office Suite: http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=A3705240&cs=19&c=us&l=en&dgc=SS&cid=27530&lid=627063 Again, not that I would ever buy that, but Grandma using her Dell computer, going to Dell's site (cuz they made the computer, I should ask them, right?) just might. Why can't you look past your own nose? And no, the government should *not* supply the computer, but for those who do have a computer and Internet access, they should supply such information in OPEN STANDARDS CONFORMING FORMAT SO THAT OUR INFORMATION IS NOT LOCKED INTO A PROPRIETARY VENDOR FORMAT, nor is an excessive burden placed on the populace to access such information. Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:46:29 -0600 Chad Smith wrote: I've struggled through differences recently between how PowerPoint displays PPT files vs how OpenOffice.org does, on government published documents. But this is a side discussion. Google has decided that they don't need to support Apple in Apple's war on Adobe. Which is perfectly reasonable, Apple has already shown that they're don't have any particular love for Google (and vice-versa, the competition in the phone space has gotten kinda testy at times). Google has a vested interest in keeping competition in the web content publishing space vibrant, Apple's been actively trying to quash aspects of it. Make your choice as a consumer. If you're a publisher, there are fallback positions. If you're a user, well, it's about time you got involved in understanding the larger political ramifications of your actions as a consumer. If you're a software developer, like I am, you're probably cheering the hell out of Google. Dan

=============================================================== From: Dee Holtsclaw ------------------------------------------------------ Rah, rah, RAH ! ! ! Sorry, had to do it.

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ I'm not cheering for Google. I'm hoping the W3C steps in and chooses its baseline codec for HTML5. Hopefully they will choose freedom, be it WebM, Theora, or Dirac. Why that still hasn't happened perplexes me.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ WordPad, included with your grandma's Dell computer, can open a .DOC file. TextEdit, included on your cousin's iMac, can open a .DOC file. (iWorks is also included if it's an educational purchase, or if you pay $49 - not $499.) KOffice or AbiWord, included on your GENTOO homebuilt smart toaster, can open a .DOC file. (If it's not included, you can apt-get it.) Google Docs, which is online for everyone with a computer and internet access, can open .DOC files. OpenOffice.org, which is free and downloadable for anyone with a computer and internet access, can open .DOC files. My point is that *PRAGMATICALLY* .doc is an open standard. Virtually every office suite made this millenium can open a .doc file. Will the formatting be exactly the same? Maybe not. But the information will be there. Same can be said for PPT files or XLS files.... Koffice, OpenOffice.org, Zoho, Google Docs, and so many other free office suites, applications, or webapps... They all open, view, read, edit, create, manipulate, import , export, whatever - those files. On a pragmatic level, on a real-world, in the ditches, practical, how-does-it-actually-work level - outside of Internet formats like HTML, or so-simple-of-a-format-it's-not-really-a-format, like .TXT - .DOC is probably the most widely used format on earth. It's open, because everyone uses it. It's free because there are tons of free ways to use it. It works, and has for well over a decade. Which is an eternity in computer cycles. I don't care about the politics of it. Apathy? Sure, keep using that word. I don't care because it doesn't matter. Some Free Software Freaks got their panties in a wad and filed a lawsuit, what else is new? That doesn't prove that it actually makes a difference. Some idiotic old woman spilled hot coffee on herself and won a lawsuit, that doesn't mean real world people don't know, or shouldn't know, without being told, that HOT COFFEE should not be poured on to one's own lap. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Erik Hanson ------------------------------------------------------ KOffice and AbiWord, included on your GENTOO homebuilt smart toaster, can open a .DOC file. (if it's not included, you can emerge it.) ;-) Had to fix that for you, my BSD waffle iron was laughing.

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ If it's old, simple, and has no graphics. Grandma bought a Dell, remember? Grandma bought a Dell, remember? I'll give you that one, if you showed Grandma how to use it, cuz the website said she needs Microsoft Office/Word I'll give you that one, if you showed Grandma how to use it, cuz the website said she needs Microsoft Office/Word You can paint all the words around it you won't, it's not open. Don't MS has pulled those patents out before, and they will again. And depending on how that information is formatted, it may, or it may not be there. Same can be said, to a much smaller degree. Word is top of that dung pile, as you creep down into the other applications, your compatibility with those formats in other programs lessons quite drastically, quite quickly. And it's a huge PITA to manipulate those documents in anything other than the Native application. Once you go beyond simple font styles, sizes, etc, the pain begins. Same with XLS, sure you can bring over simple data in cells over, and even simple formulas. And if you have fancy formatting thrown into XLS.... wheh... truly sounds like you haven't had to really deal with many real-world documents to me. /plonk Because you don't care, there is no point in continuing the conversation. Other than encourage you to continue exercising your fingers. Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Yes I have, and like the vast majority of the computer users on the planet, I have Microsoft Office. I also have other programs that can open those files. I use the other programs most of the time (iWork Pages to be specific), but if there is some formatting issue, I open it in Microsoft Office. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ I've tried to get Office 2007/2010 for months now with no luck. LibreOffice is very poor at styles and formatting...even when using OpenDocument. But I still use the OpenDocument format even with Office as I have a lot of my stuff post-2005 invested in the format.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ While I know you mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ LibreOffice - yet another example of idiotic Free Software Fanatics freaking out over politics for no good reason, resulting in a net negative for the end user. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ I don't like Oracle, and I don't like LibreOffice. My dislike is distributed equally.

=============================================================== From: Dee Holtsclaw ------------------------------------------------------ ... And do these open .docx or .xlsx files? Most of the ones sent to me in the last year are that format and it's a total cluster **** trying to deal with them. That case was appealed and settled out of court. Subsequent cases have been summarily dismissed by judges (as they should be). I cannot see where using that case as an example is either relevant or helpful towards making your point. On a personal note, apathy by voters is directly responsible for the current political mess we're in. Every citizen has a civic duty to remain informed and vote accordingly. Failure to do this has historically resulted in tyranny and oppression. Thus -- we get to blame you.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Most of the files that the US government has sent you in the last year were .docx and .xlsx? Because we were talking about 2 things, either the pragmatic standardness (defacto standard) of the .DOC format, or the US government use of the .DOC format. Not what some random people send you. Voting =E2=89=A0 using a file format just like having to use a certain office suite =E2=89=A0 being arrested for disagreei= ng with the government This is what we call "histrionics". And it's borderline "the law which shall not be named". BTW - name one dictator that was elected due to an uninformed public. The guy with the funny mustache was not actually elected, he was appointed. An= d so-called "elections" where there's only one person running and/or failure to vote for the pre-determined winner results in death or imprisonment.... those don't count either. So the other guy with the bigger, not-so-funny mustache who got hung on YouTube - he doesn't count either. And if George Bush was a dictator, he'd still be in office, and healthcare would not be the first federally mandated purchase in the history of the United States. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - Februar= y 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya e th s T en ng d

=============================================================== From: "Lucius L. Hilley III" ------------------------------------------------------ But Dave: Wouldn't that make the government actions more open to normal people? And make it easier for more people to get the legislated support for which they have a right?

=============================================================== From: Ed King ------------------------------------------------------ Palpatine If I remember correctly (I followed the proceedings closely back in the day, but then I got married, lol), Massachusetts was pushing for an open format document type so that their documents would be future-proof. Doesn't matter if 1,000 apps can open .doc format today, what matters is that 1 app can open the file a 100 years from now. On a side note, I'm reading a book entitled "The Dumbest Generation".

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, *EVERY* PC made in the last decade can read TEXT. If we actually had a standard that browsers used consistently, there would even be a way to present that TEXT uniformly. There's two opportunities for standards to assist what you describe. Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Yes because there are sooooo many people who can't open government files today, that would be able to if we just used the OpenOffice format. because everyone has OpenOffice.org - or at least more people do than have Microsoft Office. Sorry, not OpenOffice.org - LibreOffice. Oh, wait... - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: "Lucius L. Hilley III" ------------------------------------------------------ I hate to do this to the list but Chad writes: "I use the other programs *MOST* of the time" "If there is some formatting issue, I open it in Microsoft Office." Hypocrite !!! I know, You must think of us as just a bunch of insane liberals.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Not a hyporcrite. I said most people have Microsoft Office. So regardless of if other programs can open it or not, Microsoft Office is there. And I said if there is a formatting issue - not "If I can't access the information". - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Lucius L. Hilley III wrote:

=============================================================== From: "Lucius L. Hilley III" ------------------------------------------------------ Again you use that "most" word. Most people do not have Microsoft Office. They may have parts of it. If they have Office, they either have a trial version or paid for it. ANY and ALL people can have Office by paying for it if they have money to do so. (Feed the kids first, comes to mind.) ANY and ALL people can have OpenOffice with a simple download. It isn't strictly a "formatting issue". Sometimes it is a functionality issue. Can't fill in fields or use the programmed calculations of a spreadsheet if it doesn't work in OpenOffice. Would you feel less damaged if I yelled "Republican"? I would, if I felt that was fair to other republicans. They aren't all bad just like not all Democrats are good. But a person that believes can claims one thing and does another is both in denial and a hypocrite. I'm with dtb in that I am not going to exercise my fingers any further with this topic.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ ANY and ALL people, huh? So everyone in America has a computer? (Can't use OpenOffice.org with just a pen and paper last I checked.) Everyone in America with a computer has Internet access? (Can't download something without the Internet.) Everyone in America with a computer has broadband internet access? (Downloading a 134 MB - 197 MB [depending on OS] file over dialup is not very likely to happen.) Everyone in America with a computer and broadband internet access has even heard of OpenOffice.org? (To borrow from the Bible, how shall they download that of which they have not heard?) Now, I am very confident to say that of all the people in America who have a computer with broadband internet access, many more actually own Microsoft Office and/or Microsoft Word, than have even heard of OpenOffice.org. And, please, call me a Republican all you'd like. :) Democrat. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Lucius L. Hilley III wrote:

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Yes! Try opening a "program" in OpenOffice that is written in Access! Hell, two different versions of Access are incompatible, so you have to have the *correct* (or newer) version of Access in order for the "application" to work. I found that out when I tried to use a program that was written in Access in OpenOffice. It was just for giggles, but I found out that Access means Access, not OpenOffice Base!

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Flushy ------------------------------------------------------ If someone hands you an "Application" built in Access, you have the God-give= n responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then it'= s acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. While access has it's uses, just like any tool, it's been abused just like E= xcel. --b ,=20 =20 =20

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Again - exactly how many Access files are you downloading from government websites? Strawman, anyone? I never mentioned Access. I mentioned DOC XLS and PPT - not any other MSO format. Well, I did mention PUB, and said those aren't very accessible. You are absolutely right, it has nothing to do with anything, but yes, Access files are not open. Congratulations. omg - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ 1. Point your browser to http://www.nationalmap.gov/viewers.html 2. Click the "Click here to open viewer" 3. Zoom in on Chattanooga 4. Click the "Download Data" button 5. Click "See Available Data" 6. Choose Structures and then "Personal Geodatabase" Not only is this a Microsoft Access file, but it's one that's uses some proprietary extensions on readable in Esri ArcGIS. That other option, FileGeodatabase, can't even be opened in Access, only in Esri ArcGIS. Think Microsoft Office is expensive? Granted there is one other option "Shapefile" which is another Esri proprietary format but one which Esri was nice enough to publish the spec for. As for the formatting issues, information is conveyed in the way things are formatted. This is why PDFs continue to be popular - the format is maintained across platforms. It continues to amaze me that the Federal Government gets away with publishing anything as a PowerPoint because the format violates accessibility regulations. The should, at least, convert the PPT to PDF. -Eric P.S. I made a nice bit of coin in the 90s rewriting Microsoft Access applications. I love Access for that very reason!

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Didn't have a choice in the matter. A couple years ago the company hired a local programmer to write an application to help us keep track of custom sample requests. He only knows how to write in Access, so that's what it's written in.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ Access ain't bad at one user office automation tasks.. It's great for mail merges, and I have even see a -small- utility or two use it for invoice generation, which for them was grab 1000 customer addresses, 1000 meter reads, do a little math and a mail merge to a word document. It fails when it's multi-user and using MDB files for storage. It fails when you need real work. Last time I played with it, it had a much improved reporting system I was actually envious of at the time. If properly programmed and using a MS-SQL server for a back end, it can be fairly impressive for an application. And then you learn about real SQL-ish database servers... On Linux or *nix.. and you realize what a pig it is.

=============================================================== From: gary hasty ------------------------------------------------------ Unless you're billing to rewrite it since it's now critical and fails weekl= y iven responsibility to shoot them on the spot. If no gun is available, then= it's acceptable to slap them if it's with both hands. e Excel. ll, he ss

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ Not even. Any amount they give me would be too little for the amount of labor I invest in it, plus the mental health issues that will follow right after.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ RL: Hitler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed King" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 3:44:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] I love Chrome, but now I hate Google Palpatine

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ The first rule of Godwin's Law is that you don't talk about Godwin's Law. I think that's how it goes.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ No. He was appointed, not elected. I already addressed that. Please read before posting. Also, learn history. And, btw, Palpatine wasn't elected, either. He was appointed by the senate, not voted in by an uninformed populace. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- ... And do these open .docx or .xlsx files? Most of the ones sent to me in the last year are that format and it's a total cluster **** trying to deal with them. Reading in reverse, bear with me. The coffee was served @ 18 0 to 190 degrees causing 3rd degree burns. Existing product law(state I believe) stating that it could not be used as delivered was a factor in the case. McDonalds also got burned because this lady was not the first customer they had burned.(pun intended). Hence punitive damages since you can't jail a corporation. What does this have to do with file formats I'm not sure. Unless Chad is arguing we should not have legal redress. Freedom rests on the Soap Box, Ballot Box, Jury Box, & Ammo Box. Funny how conservatives pushing Tort reform forget that.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 4:49:44 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] I love Chrome, but now I hate Google ANY and ALL people, huh? So everyone in America has a computer? (Can't use OpenOffice.org with just a pen and paper last I checked.) Everyone in America with a computer has Internet access? (Can't download something without the Internet.) Everyone in America with a computer has broadband internet access? (Downloading a 134 MB - 197 MB [depending on OS] file over dialup is not very likely to happen.) Everyone in America with a computer and broadband internet access has even heard of OpenOffice.org? (To borrow from the Bible, how shall they download that of which they have not heard?) Now, I am very confident to say that of all the people in America who have a computer with broadband internet access, many more actually own Microsoft Office and/or Microsoft Word, than have even heard of OpenOffice.org. And, please, call me a Republican all you'd like. :) Democrat. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya Google docs is making in roads. As the next big growth spurt of "the net" will be mobile devices that can't even windows (arm), I do expect MS to lose ground. And, please, call me a Republican all you'd like. :) Democrat. This one case binary thinking does not apply. Unkmar doesn't fit even in those cookie cutter molds. Might I suggest you check out this site? http://www.politicalcompass.org/

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ ODF files can be generated and manipulated without open office in bash. I hear there is a tex plugin as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kilgore" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 1:24:51 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] I love Chrome, but now I hate Google I've tried to get Office 2007/2010 for months now with no luck. LibreOffice is very poor at styles and formatting...even when using OpenDocument. But I still use the OpenDocument format even with Office as I have a lot of my stuff post-2005 invested in the format. truly sounds like you haven't had to really deal with many real-world documents to me. Yes I have, and like the vast majority of the computer users on the planet, I have Microsoft Office. I also have other programs that can open those files. I use the other programs most of the time (iWork Pages to be specific), but if there is some formatting issue, I open it in Microsoft Office. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ That's very helpful for the normal person. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 12:41:44 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] I love Chrome, but now I hate Google My point is that *PRAGMATICALLY* .doc is an open standard. Virtually every office suite made this millenium can open a .doc file. Will the formatting be exactly the same? Maybe not. But the information will be there. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya ------------------------------- THE HELL IT IS! Besides being the keeper of the donor database here I merge a lot letters. And I'm frequently called upon to help the other agencies we deal with who may be using Corel or Amipro or Goddess knows what to read a .doc or other related MS file. It ain't pretty. Just when cross compatibility is reached, Micky Soft upgrades and changes the damn spec so it's competitors can't read it. Same for .XLS. That kind monkey business bites people in the ass every damn day. Open standard should defacto. Once upon a time Mac users were victim to this Chad. I'm surprised you don't remember. And anyone involved in the creation of MS works should be filleted alive and have salt rubbed in their wounds.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, you are a reasonable person, with logical and sane views on the world. Also, your priorities are well ordered, and your value of human life compared to digital content is proper. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Semantics as he had to be elected to the Reichstag to be eligible . Yes he was elected to office as his party. We are talking about a parliamentary system after all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 10:37:43 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] I love Chrome, but now I hate Google No. He was appointed, not elected. I already addressed that. Please read before posting. Also, learn history. And, btw, Palpatine wasn't elected, either. He was appointed by the senate, not voted in by an uninformed populace. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya RL: Hitler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed King" < chevyiinova@bellsouth.net > To: "CHUGALUG" < chugalug@chugalug.org > Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 3:44:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] I love Chrome, but now I hate Google Palpatine

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2011/jan11/01-05socsupport.mspx Don't get your hopes up too high.... Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ No, he wasn't. He was not the party leader at the time of election. Please read a book. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ Semantics aside, doesn't the mere definition of dictator pretty much preclude them from being "elected" in a democratically-supported type of way? Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Then you agree with me that Dee was wrong. There has never been an example of an uninformed public voting in tyranny and oppression. Thanks. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ Chad is the Hitler of Hitler debates. I think this thread just auto-Godwina= ted. -Eric -=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-= =3D- Eric B. Wolf =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 720-334-77= 34 s

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ I was asking Rod :) Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Aaron Welch ------------------------------------------------------ Something scary to think about... What if Hitler had the same drive to succe= ed, without all the bloodshed. Remove his psycho desire to kill Jews and w= hat could he have done? I am by no means a Hitler fan, but he did accomplis= h ALOT to benefit the little people in Germany... Before he killed half of t= hem. -AW

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Based on that logic the roman republic could never give rise to the roman empire. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Brockman" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:36:38 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] I love Chrome, but now I hate Google Semantics aside, doesn't the mere definition of dictator pretty much preclude them from being "elected" in a democratically-supported type of way? Regards, dtb

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ According to http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ 2. What happens if we're actually talking about Nazis? =09 Then you've already invoked Godwin's Law, and the chances are that your thread isn't going to last all that much longer as a sane discussion. Them's the breaks. -Eric -=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-= =3D- Eric B. Wolf =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 720-334-77= 34 inated.

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ `Twas brillig, and the sl