upstart vs systemd

From: Christopher Rimondi 

I have been into Upstart a bit lately and it is a kind of love/hate
relationship.  Interesting to get people's perspective.

Chris Rimondi | |

=============================================================== From: DaWorm ------------------------------------------------------ Until recently, as a user and not admin or developer, I could not have cared less. However, I am now investigating building a product with embedded Linux, and the ability to run Debian or Ubuntu on an embedded Arm board intrigues me, because it makes setting up the embedded system very similar to setting up a desktop system. I can learn on the desktop and apply to the embedded world. It looks like I'm getting in at a bad time, because anything I learn today will be different tomorrow. In a way, that's always true, but sometimes "tomorrow" is "five years". In this case, "tomorrow" is more like "this year". Jeff.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ So depending on your platform... You use an image for a Raspberry Pi (or, probably, BeagleBoard) like system. This runs Debian, you use the package manager, everything looks just like your desktop. You use a compilation system like "buildroot" to build a cross-compilation environment and a BusyBox based image. This gives you GCC + "make" (usually via automake/autoconf or similar build scripts), and is an "init"-like/based system. But in either case, just get used to typing "sudo system apache2 restart" rather than "sudo /etc/init.d/apache2 restart" and life is groovy. Dan

=============================================================== From: DaWorm ------------------------------------------------------ BeagleBone Black, actually. But I'm not 100% sure about the rest. The final product won't have the package manager installed, for instance. I don't plan on it even having X, as all I really need is a framebuff and QT embedded. No sense loading X or a window manager when it isn't needed. Still working out this whole cross-compilation stuff. A lot to learn yet, and I'm on the very steep part of the curve right now. But doesn't buildroot imply some sort of emulator (since I'm going from Intel to Arm)? I can't just chroot into the arm image and execute things, can I, even with cross compilers? Starting and stopping existing things that are already there doesn't bother me. I do that all the time. Creating my own daemons or apps from scratch and setting them up so that they can be started (but probably never stopped) when the system boots is a different thing entirely. Setting them up so that if they crash they get restarted is something I need to worry about too. It might all turn out to be simple, but when you don't know at all, you don't know if its easy or hard. Having things change in the middle of learning probably won't help me any. Jeff.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ No, you can't just chroot into the arm image. What buildroot (and the various other such things, seems like each manufacturer funds one, buildroot does Atmel well) does is built a compiler that runs on your host platform and outputs ARM (or whatever). It then also builds a kernel and utilities (usually with BusyBox) and often has a bunch of other packages (ie: SDL for video/audio, X, assorted other libraries and utilities). So you compile and build, and then create your disk images, on your Intel (or whatever) host box, and then burn that image to flash (or whatever) and boot your target device. And you can then compile additional things that you can load on to the device if you have other access mechanisms beyond that disk image (zmodem is handy over serial lines, some of what I've done has also had a net interface, so ssh+scp totally rocks it). Usually you'll have a serial port which ends up as /dev/ttyS0 or the console, and attaching to that gives you a login prompt (sometimes it's just "enter" and you're root, sometimes you set up accounts as a part of building your image). And if you don't want Busybox, the kernel is usually compiled to run /sbin/init by default (and you can change that), so if all you want is the kernel and your app, nothing managing services, the kernel boots, mounts your root fs, and execs init, and then you're on your own. Yeah, easiest to use whatever init your build system ships with and build them that way. Everything looks easier from the other side. Now that I've been through it on multiple platforms it sounds easy, but the details are always painful. Dan

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ Figured I should elaborate... You can't run the arm binaries, but as the disk image is being built, it's just a set of directories somewhere, so you can CD into it and move files around and all. Dan

=============================================================== From: DaWorm ------------------------------------------------------ Fortunately much has been scripted for this board. Just have to tear it down line by line until I understand it. Hopefully I can get Eclipse working with GDB on it to debug the app. But this is threadjacked enough already.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Fri, 14 Feb 2014 20:05:37 -0500 DaWorm wrote: Or, you know, emacs GDB mode. Nonsense! This sort of discussion is exactly why I participate in Chugalug! Dan

=============================================================== From: Aaron welch ------------------------------------------------------ Not quite enough, I am still reading... +5000 I like discussions on here that inspire me to go look something up. The solar discussion earlier (and ongoing) is a good example. I have both a love and hate relationship with this list, but that comes with dealing with my fellow passionate geeks. -- Aaron Welch Chief Mechanic @ Geek Ventures 423-505-9999 "Enabling people to do great things with their own ideas."

=============================================================== From: DaWorm ------------------------------------------------------ No amount of torture would ever get me to use emacs. Or vi. I should be working with the board today, but instead I'm trying to repair a 1980 Commodore 8050 dual disk drive. Too many hobbies. Jeff.

=============================================================== From: Unkmar ------------------------------------------------------

=============================================================== From: Andrew Rodgers ------------------------------------------------------ You need a better shell if you don't get sudo system tab completion... Works great on ZSH. Andrew =E1=90=A7

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 00:22:38 -0500 Unkmar wrote: Or, worse, moving between RedHat/SL based systems where they rename Apache to httpd. I don't know, and I'm not saying that I like this new stuff. There are all sorts of issues with systemd that I'm not a fan of, and every time Ubuntu (and, let's be fair, Debian) go further down this sort of path I get further back towards "screw it, I'm going to drop the GNU utilities and just use BusyBox and go lightweight". Dan

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ Thats the beauty of linux, you get to choose. I've been looking into the current state of puppy on powerpc found out that Woofscript is built on top of T2. But aren't we as a community starting to sound like the old man screaming " You kids get off my grass(kernel)!"

=============================================================== From: David White ------------------------------------------------------ How about vim? ;D