Forum vs Listserv

From: Mike Harrison 
On Mon, 16 Sep 2013, Mike Robinson wrote:
> I want to know what's happening around here, but I can't stand a 
> Listserv much longer.  If it stays, I go.

Been nice knowing you... but I hope you stay.

Chugalug has been active since 1999. It's evolved a little since then,
and will evolve more over time. "Listserv" suck, "WebForums" suck..
both have different reasons they are each superior and inferior.
Those reasons are often different for different people.

I'll admit the recent foray into PGP/GPG and signatures has added noise to 
the list, but it is part of the evolutionary process of both the list and 
the technologies being used. The biggest factor is the people involved and 
their behaviors.

Chugalug has existed for 14+ years under my personal benevolence as an 
experiment in communal anarchy and community as much as it is a "LUG".
Its flavor dates back to the hobbies (and businesses) of several of the 
founding members that ran Bulletin Board Systems (BBS's) including myself.

If the community decries posting PGP/GPG sigs as antisocial behavior,
the more socially aware members MIGHT not post them to the list.
They might, just because they can. I'd like to let the community work that 
out over time.

My personal gripe of top posters that don't trim is a common one
for many of my more e-mail list savvy generation. While I don't like
PGP Signatures that are invasive in the body of the email compared to MIME 
attachments, I understand the tools being used and their reasons. I'd 
rather see a post from Dave or Dan with such "noise" than not have them 
post. I swap back and forth from using PINE and Apple Mail, I usually see 
-everything- in PINE and only the relevant part in Apple Mail. Maybe your 
choice or configuration of e-mail interface is part of the issue?

===Anyway, back on topic:======

A web forum.

0.  I won't host any commonly available web forum (Simple Machines Forum, 
PhpBB, etc.. ) on my personal server. I have in the past and they are so 
full of exploits and management overhead as to be not something I want to 
deal with. Anything with session/cookie based auth is a pain. Once upon 
a time I hacked SMF to use Basic Auth.. worth using.

1.  If anyone wants to set one up and host it and manage it, I'd happily 
point some DNS hostname's to it.. join the fray, explore how it worked 
with the community.

2. My personal experience with Web Forums is the tend to race to the 
bottom. The listserv format is the only barrier to being a member of 
Chugalug, and posting/conversing to 250+ people, it's just enough of a 
technical barrier to be desirable.

3.  Viva la Revolution! If the community organizes a revolt with enough 
long term commitment to be credible, I'll graciously concede. I'm a member 
of some other "LUGS" that die and rebirth every few years, fighting over
control, format, agenda, mission, checkbook, 501c3 status, meeting 

======Just saw the post about: reddit

Awesome. Works for me.. We could even setup a cross-posting mechanism....
a redirect.. All things are possible.

I've also seen Linked In Forums, IRC chats..  All good. Welcome to 
socially responsible anarchy. This is a "Society of Independant People"
and you can be an active force in it.

=============================================================== From: William Wade ------------------------------------------------------ Just Googled a bit and found this: Looks like anyone can do it just by being a subscriber to a list and boom! you have a forum like interface for Chugalug just for you! I'll run a test and report back.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ I'd say you are in charge of the Nabble project and I'm impressed with what little I saw so far. Have fun and post a link when ready.

=============================================================== From: William Roush ------------------------------------------------------ In my opinion it's only really annoying when your sig is larger than your content 99% of the time. Though I swear I've seen people attach sigs as attachments, which is nice. William Roush

=============================================================== From: willmwade ------------------------------------------------------ Well if you see this, then it is working. The posts are coming into Nabble, but this will confirm that they are posting back. -- View this message in context: Sent from the Chugalug mailing list archive at

=============================================================== From: William Roush ------------------------------------------------------ Nope, don't see nothing. William Roush

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Mike Harrison : [snip] I know that once upon a time there was such a thing as an emailUsenet gateway. Perhaps something like that could be devised here?

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Ew. I hate reddits posting style, it hurts my damned eyes.

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ And people complain about drupal based forums. Why scrape and push to rss?

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ For a while I had a blogUsenet gateway. Became a hassle to keep migrating INN versions, so I let it bit rot, but... The nice thing about email lists and even NNTP groups is that there's a certain filtering that happens when there's a barrier to entry. Anyone remember waving the dead chicken to post to the Scary Devil Monastery? Dan

=============================================================== From: DaWorm ------------------------------------------------------ Not sure where all of the forum talk came from. I just wondered why the PGP key had to be inline in the message instead of an attachment. If that's a limitation of PGP, fine. I was just noting it made viewing mail on the phone much less than enjoyable, not asking anyone to switch from a list to a forum, or even to stop using PGP. But, and this is an unknown to me, if the PGP app lets you put the public key in an attachment rather than inline, it would be nice to the other people on the list for those that want PGP to do so. If not, I guess I'll live with it, because the parts of the message that have actual content in them are still usually quite enjoyable. Jeff.

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Usually keys are attached. Including the signature inline allows those with properly configured clients to be able to identify within their mail client that the email was indeed signed by a valid known key. Otherwise, one would have to save the text email, save the signature, and run the verify command from the CLI to verify the signature. Then there are headers/footers that the mailing list may add that wouldn't have been on the original email that was signed, helpfully, G/PGP have start and stop marks when used inline. Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSN3oSAAoJEMP+wtEOVbcd7mMH/3tip5skUgiehwSuQfyS+adh M6wJiPI4gkp5gNaA49dqiuygVtCQ/CTKA1+RqWQW25YxnlnfToCa7ivitxCKeS+5 UhePd1wWmp2HVEMeAxMAWgtOrd9EbD6Hdvs1C8wyrq3nHC7Q0f66zMn3/86Swj5h UwlnZAldESITCqJ6Th46yl0Qinb1RiFZk6RmNJtqS5XiFyU3mdX/Bc69hBtaTLdR 67S+Yx20GM6tzjdr0HOOfR9oMKrXPzIJnMD03jQZP74Axa4dcc3s6uNBjZfDh5ge 8WYG2oV3hEQN1ZGbPPGYt7rqGxQOovI9euHmg/jGLHl0j9sIv2Ll/Nld1Si3+FM= =7+05 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----