ButterFly ASIC Single arrived -- My review

From: Lynn Dixon 
------------------------------------------------------
For those interested in Bitcoin on the lug, I have finally received my
first Butterfly Labs Single.

Here's a quick review:
Well packaged during shipping, and was shipped USPS 2-day priorty mail with
signature required.

The build quality is fantastic.  Really nice brushed aluminum black case
that has rounded edges and corners, and a nice laster etched Butterfly Labs
logo.  The power supply brick was about 1.5 times larger than your typical
Xbox 360 power brick for comparison.  The power brick has a built in
cooling fan which I thought was pretty slick. The ASIC miner uses PCI-e
power connectors and the power brick is outfitted with PCI-e plugs as well.
 Overall its a very well designed and well built piece of hardware.  I am
really happy with it.

Now, the good part. How well does it run?  In a nutshell...like a dream.
 It has been a little over 24 hours, and it has already generated me just
over .5 BTC (about $70). It has some really powerful fans that are a bit
louder than I had hoped, but I honestly can't hear it in my datacloset.  I
used BFL's EasyMiner for the first 24 hours just to get the full
experience.  I am planning on swithching over to CGMiner in afew days.

Here is a screenshot of Easyminer, and the performance:
http://i.imgur.com/smdFgjD.jpg

Another screen snippet of the asic running compared to one of my GPU's on
EclipseMC mining pool:  http://i.imgur.com/5ozLrQa.jpg

EasyMiner has a cool "earnings" section that pulls the latest difficulty
and latest exchange rates to give you an idea of your scheduled earnings.
 Right now, its looking like this 60GH/s rig should return about $2000 per
month. This is pertty consistent with all of the other ROI calculators I
have used.

Financial analysis:
At the current difficulty and exchanges, this rig should generate about .45
- .5 BTC per day, which is about $65 - $70 average per day.  Most
calculators I have used puts monthly revenue at around $1800 - $2000 per
month.
Here is my numbers plugged into TheGenesisBlock's calculator:
http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/5f1c18143a">http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/5f1c18143a

I purchased my 60 GH/s unit for about $1375 back in June of last year, and
I am figuring about a 3 to 5 week payoff period, and calculating a 75%
increase in difficulty per month in my ROI estimation.

This thing was well worth the wait. Butterfly labs may be horrible at
meeting deadlines, but they are really good at designing a product. This
thing runs great, looks awesome, and is generating an impresive ROI.  After
mining with it for a full day, I have already placed my pre-order for some
Monarchs:
https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage-new-products/600-gh-bitcoin-mining-card.html

Feel free to discuss, but please, lets keep this BTC thread civil and on
topic :-)

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ We can haz pix plz? kthnxbai *- Chad W. Smith*

=============================================================== From: Keith ------------------------------------------------------ Hi Lynn, Have you tested the power usage for it yet? In your opinion would it be worth it to order one of these now, or is it basically too late? Thanks, Keith

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Keith, I can't find my blasted watt meter to measure power consumption. I can't remember if I leant it out to someone, or if I have just misplaced it. I am guessing that my unit is in about the same lines as all the other BFL 60GHash singles shipped, and thats anywhere from 350 to 375 watts of power, which is extremely effecient when compared to one of my 500 Mhash GPU consuming 250 to 300 watts. It's hard to say if buying now would net you quick profits. I would look at some of the calculators that are out there. My favorie is the one at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ since it allows you to easily tweak the numbers to give different scenarios. Keep in mind that alot of companies are beginning to ship ASIC's now, and BFL has announced their Monarch which is a 600 GHash unit that runs on around 300 watts in a nice PCI-E form factor to make it super dense.

=============================================================== From: Matt Keys ------------------------------------------------------ Awesome, can't wait to get mine! What was your order #?

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Matt, My first ASIC order number was 3598 Have you been keeping an eye on Jody's shipping blog? https://forums.butterflylabs.com/members/bfl

=============================================================== From: Keith ------------------------------------------------------ Thanks, Lynn. As soon as I read your review and responded I went looking at bfl's website again. The monarch is probably where I would drop the cash. I doubt I can swing more than one without my wife shooting me, but it'd be nice to have two or three running if possible. BFL seems to think they can make their dates this time. I'll let you guys know if I take the plunge and how it turns out. That would be my first BTC rig, so I'd probably be hitting you guys up for advice. Thanks, Keith

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Ill be honest with you, I don't see BFL hitting their estimated ship dates. They have never made a promised ship date. I can tell you that they do indeed deliver products, and the products they deliver are excellent quality.

=============================================================== From: Phil Sieg ------------------------------------------------------ Lynn, How do you feel about the little USB ASIC's that do about 330 Mh/s? each = one seems to be about equal to a $400 video card, and they are $26-33 = each. I am interested enough to "play" and $1000 bucks of these on one of my = extra computers has ONE huge advantage...they are shipping NOW. Seems like 9-10 Gh/s for $1,000 plus equipment I have lying around, and = almost free electricity might be a place to start. I am not keen on = placing an order and waiting who knows how many months while the BTC = market is in constant flux (this is my single largest objection). Thoughts? Any second hand knowledge of these little monsters? Phil Sieg President SeniorTech LLC / snapf=C5=8Dn=C2=AE www.snapfon.com phil.sieg@seniortechllc.com Phone: 423.535.9968 Fax: 423.265.9820 Mobile: 423.331.0725 "The computer is the most remarkable tool that we've ever come up with. = It's the equivalent of a bicycle for our minds." Steve Jobs, 1955-2011 dates. They have never made a promised ship date. I can tell you that = they do indeed deliver products, and the products they deliver are = excellent quality. =20 wrote: website again. The monarch is probably where I would drop the cash. it'd be nice to have two or three running if possible. guys know if I take the plunge and how it turns out. for advice. can't remember if I leant it out to someone, or if I have just misplaced = it. BFL 60GHash singles shipped, and thats anywhere from 350 to 375 watts of = power, which is extremely effecient when compared to one of my 500 Mhash = GPU consuming 250 to 300 watts. look at some of the calculators that are out there. My favorie is the = one at http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/ since it allows you to easily = tweak the numbers to give different scenarios. Keep in mind that alot = of companies are beginning to ship ASIC's now, and BFL has announced = their Monarch which is a 600 GHash unit that runs on around 300 watts in = a nice PCI-E form factor to make it super dense. =20 wrote: it basically too late? first Butterfly Labs Single. with signature required. =20 case that has rounded edges and corners, and a nice laster etched = Butterfly Labs logo. The power supply brick was about 1.5 times larger = than your typical Xbox 360 power brick for comparison. The power brick = has a built in cooling fan which I thought was pretty slick. The ASIC = miner uses PCI-e power connectors and the power brick is outfitted with = PCI-e plugs as well. Overall its a very well designed and well built = piece of hardware. I am really happy with it. dream. It has been a little over 24 hours, and it has already generated = me just over .5 BTC (about $70). It has some really powerful fans that = are a bit louder than I had hoped, but I honestly can't hear it in my = datacloset. I used BFL's EasyMiner for the first 24 hours just to get = the full experience. I am planning on swithching over to CGMiner in = afew days. http://i.imgur.com/smdFgjD.jpg =20 on EclipseMC mining pool: http://i.imgur.com/5ozLrQa.jpg difficulty and latest exchange rates to give you an idea of your = scheduled earnings. Right now, its looking like this 60GH/s rig should = return about $2000 per month. This is pertty consistent with all of the = other ROI calculators I have used. about .45 - .5 BTC per day, which is about $65 - $70 average per day. = Most calculators I have used puts monthly revenue at around $1800 - = $2000 per month.=20 and I am figuring about a 3 to 5 week payoff period, and calculating a = 75% increase in difficulty per month in my ROI estimation. meeting deadlines, but they are really good at designing a product. This = thing runs great, looks awesome, and is generating an impresive ROI. = After mining with it for a full day, I have already placed my pre-order = for some Monarchs: = https://products.butterflylabs.com/homepage-new-products/600-gh-bitcoin-mi= ning-card.html on topic :-)=20

=============================================================== From: William Roush ------------------------------------------------------ With how backordered ASICs are (as I understand it), would it even be worth putting in an order now? How much can we expect out of these expensive ASICs if we have to wait a year or more at this point? William Roush

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Phil, I have been kicking around the idea of picking some of these up. My BTC hardware budget has been spent on Monarchs, but I am still seriously considering getting a few of these things. Several of the fab companies in China have gotten ahold of the few ASIC designs out there (since China doesnt care about patents and copyrights), and they have been making these little miners for several months now. I know some folks that have a few dozen of them, and are quite happy with them. With these suckers on the market performing the same as a 7950 and 7970 GPU on fractions of the power, and fractions of the cost, they are definately worth the money to buy. Especially since they are in good supply now. The only negative I have heard about them is that most of them are passive cooling, and they can get a bit warm. So long as you have them mining in a well ventilated area, you should be alright. Most of the folks I know running them wanted to pack them close together for density, but they dont cool well enough for that. They need several inches of clearance for good airflow to keep cool. They have almost negiblible power consumption, so that will substantially reduce your variable costs. When you go building a rig with these things, you have to keep in mind you will need USB powered hubs, since most USB busses cant handle more than a few. In my opinion, if you are wanting to get into mining, right now, those things are a great way to go. You can manage your total initial investment better, since they are lower cost, and you can get them shipped immediately. Their low power will help you see returns on them for a good while. Hope that helps! h. ng s d it. f h k t ce : l terfly ur uilt PCI-e well. I am ted me re a loset. . s duled about Most per , a 75% his After some in-mining-card.html

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ I have 24 of the USB ASICminers running for the past couple weeks. Unfortunately, I paid a lot more than the current $35/each (about double that). Here's my current stats on the Eligius pool: http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/19sEUv2owYEKGNgdAyB3Az9= FLYZPf8bhm1 In addition to the USB miners, you also need decent, powered USB hubs. These things are very sensitive to the quality of the hubs. I tried a few different ones and ended up using the "standard" Anker 9-port USB3 hubs. You also really need to build usblib and cgminer locally. But once you get it stable, it just runs. About every other day, I get a core dump on CGMiner and have to restart. As you can see from the stats, I don't always notice and restart in a timely manner. The great thing about the USB miners is the low cost of entry. -Eric -=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-= =3D- Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734 e a t d nt ch. ing n ed it. of sh one t of r ice : tterfly our built PCI-e s well. I am ated me are a closet. s. eduled about . Most per lating t This After r some oin-mining-card.html d

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Eric, Why not write a shell script to run cgminer in a loop? z9FLYZPf8bhm1 t s rs -=3D- , lks nce y , ent d h ach. cing in : d ced it. r of ash e one ot of ir nice e: s utterfly your built s PCI-e as well. I am rated me are a acloset. ys. heduled n about I y. Most 0 per ulating ct. This . After or some coin-mining-card.html

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ Mostly laziness. In fact, I'm running it with the curses display in an SSH session. So I have to keep it open. Again, laziness. To the point, the USB miners do a pretty good job churning out BTC. They aren't fast enough to actually make money at going rates and difficulty increases. But nothing you can buy today will do that. The only way to get ahead of the curve is to invest in BFL's next generation. And that means dropping almost $5K today for something that you might not see for a while. -Eric -=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-= =3D- Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734 Az9FLYZPf8bhm1 w et ys ers =3D-=3D- C ), I d olks ance th ment od 6-33 d acing in t : p aced it. 5 watts 0 Mhash he one lot of eir nice te: k Butterfly your a built es PCI-e as well. . I am erated me t are a tacloset. l ays. cheduled rn about OI ay. Most 00 per culating uct. This I. After for some tcoin-mining-card.html

=============================================================== From: Matt Keys ------------------------------------------------------ Thanks! I've seen that blog before waiting on my jalas but haven't checked it in a long time. I guess I'll be waiting for a few more months as my order number is in the 9xxx range. It's tempting to go ahead and roll the order over to the PCIe card but I figure it'll take another 2 years to get it.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ Help me out on my economics here, but, barring short-term bubble effects, bitcoins are the very definition of a commodity. They're very easily transferred, tremendously fungible, and any bubble effects are quickly ironed out by increased production to meet the additional demand. The only economic friction here from which one could make money is the delay in building faster mining hardware or other people otherwise optimizing the coin discovery process. If you can buy the hardware off-the-shelf to do this, then you're betting that... well... other people aren't going to buy the hardware off the shelf to compete with you? Since there's a waiting list for hardware, amortize it with what you've got, because as soon as that next batch of ASICs drops you're going to be out-competed. At least until the space is mined out and you have scarcity of some sort. In other words, if you're in the production business, you get the lead time for new hardware as your opportunity to amortize your existing hardware. 3 months or so. And since people aren't generally thinking rationally about bitcoin mining, you likely don't even have that time. Good luck, and all, and I haven't wanted to get involved in the bitcoin debates here as they go on way too long, but basic economics says that unless you can participate in some bubble timing, your returns are gonna be negative. Dan

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Dan, The supply of bitcoins is controlled by the network to maintain 6 blocks per hour. This is why we have the diffiuclty changes. After 2000 (I think, could be 1500) blocks are produced, the network evaluates the time on average to produce those blocks. If its more than 6 per hour, the difficulty is increased to account for this new hashing capacity. Ideally it adjusts just enough to produce 6 blocks an hour for the next cycle. So, there is no possible way production can increase to meet demand. Productions is strictly controlled by all peers on the network to 6 blocks per hour. This is a reason why price is so sensitve to spikes. Demand highly drives price since there is no way to manipulate supply. The "gamble" of mining comes in securing the hardware first. If you wait to long to secure the mining hardware, and end up waiting in a que, those folks that procured first will take advantage of the lower difficulty while the others are waiting on their hardware. Currently, this generation of ASICS running 60 GHash, has a payoff period of about 3 weeks, after that, its nearly pure profit. They consume about 350 watts at .09 per KWH. They only generate a small amount of heat, so cooling is pretty neglible. Most miners realized that the first generation of ASICs would soon be replaced, as they were built on very ineffecient 110nm and 65nm chips. We all knew that these would soon be replaced with smaller dies, and BFL's Monarch is a 25nm chip. I seriously don't think ASIC's will be produced on any more effecient media, but I do think there will be more entrants in the manufcaturing sphere dropping the price of ASIC's considerably. But, as a miner, I am not going to wait. I have pre-ordered my Monarchs as I plan on mining them before difficulty gets to insane. This will let me recover the investment costs early, and the rig can mine super effeciently after that. Its pretty simple, when it comes to mining, if you plan to be succesful you have to be on the front of the technology curve to take full advantage of it. I'd imagine this same scenario plays out in any business.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ I think I understand blocks vs coins differently. The block supply is moderated by the network to handle latency issues, so that processors aren't working on the same problem over and over again, but the coin supply is moderated by mathematics. When block latency is adjusted, what's being changed is how much computation information is transmitted in a block, not how many hashes per hour the machines are evaluating. ie: Hook a gazillion machines up suddenly and even though your blocks-per-hour rate gets adjusted down, the number of hashes evaluated goes way way up. Of course having those gazillion machines then becomes a liability, because if the block rate is limited to 6 per hour, there's a much higher chance you're repeating calculations done by other machines... Dan

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ can it be used for anything else? -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Dan, exactly. Maybe I did a poor job of explaining it. After 2000 blocks the network evaluates the time it took to hash those blocks. If it generated more than the targeted 6 blocks per hour, then the hash difficulty is increased as an efford to make it 'harder" for the network as a whole to "guess" the hash. Currently the reward for finding a block is 25 BTC. This reward decreases with time. The larger the difficulty, the longer it will take a machine to guess the hash. The blocks per hour rate never changes, the network will adjust difficulty to always maintain 6 blocks per hour.

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ Dan, In a nutshell, you are correct. The economics of mining doesn't make sense. But that's the fundamental lesson of economics over the past couple decades. People don't behave rationally. I like the little USB miners because they make blinky lights and appear to generate something of value. It's a hobby. Last year, if you could leverage cheaper electricity with the ability to run lots of high end video cards, you could have an edge. I started down this route but was working form home and didn't want the fan noise in my environment. That was a mistake because it caused me to miss the bubble when the first generation ASICs hit. I also cashed in my BTC at $7 because I didn't believe there would be a bubble (even though someone on the list, I forget who, accurately predicted it). Now, mining has largely become a matter of getting your hands on the newest miners early enough to generate a profit (barring another bubble). There are very few technical barriers to mining other than cash. Right now, that requires a minimum $5K investment and may not deliver returns any time soon (if at all). That is, barring another bubble. I probably should sell my USB miners and buy some Raspberry PIs and Arduinos. But that'd make too much sense! -Eric -=--=---=----=----=---=--=-=--=---=----=---=--=-=- Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting Rod : I looked at their website and I think the front page said it was good for Bitcoin mining OR Cryptography.

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I didn't see any APIs documented so I could offload my AES encryption to it.... Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSJly6AAoJEMP+wtEOVbcdu2YIAJdSWPJt1JG7OqGTB9X4eISq gPoWNT64DpU8JihqwxpBtdWPAzrsyFbkg45YwneRmG+0wZNyhTv/oe5KFd3RrHVR wQpKdHs64B4Nzkh/HVv6sXvLcC/AUUd59f/BjKmZDQdjIXNzGS/SI1/blZOygw8m A+qbWtFC3Gzjbin4bnkkgiYWCDgz5mZF/dPG2zeOD9D39SQQvzV3KY2p9hb+NLh0 cQcwid5H1LtAs7+gm1XOJDY324Kxzgs+oN0F9gmYurCkL1yHywbtHHE3YVctQ0yD NiJP5zRQHX1GO5s5VldgOUZN6q/MO37YCTUinFo7m8SoIr7VnbGlTkBX1Z2Jb/w= =mVWJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Phil Sieg ------------------------------------------------------ Ok so based on feedback here I bought a "mini" USB ASIC rig: 9 USB ASIC miners @ $30 =3D $270 1 ANKER USB 3.0 10 port hub $64 (Thanks Eric Wolf, I rather thought they = would need a good hub) 1 USB articulating fan to cool the 9 miners $7 So $341 for 3GH/S delivered. That's 2.3 bitcoins, which I HOPE I can = mine in a couple of months. I will get set up and after a week or two calculate whether I was smart, = or a fool. If the payback is in line, I will just keep ordering these in = blocks of 9 and daisy-chain them. As long as they pay for themselves and net out, then it's just more = blinky lights to sooth me... Phil Sieg President SeniorTech LLC / snapf=C5=8Dn=C2=AE www.snapfon.com phil.sieg@seniortechllc.com Phone: 423.535.9968 Fax: 423.265.9820 Mobile: 423.331.0725 "The computer is the most remarkable tool that we've ever come up with. = It's the equivalent of a bicycle for our minds." Steve Jobs, 1955-2011 sense. But that's the fundamental lesson of economics over the past = couple decades. People don't behave rationally. I like the little USB = miners because they make blinky lights and appear to generate something = of value. It's a hobby. to run lots of high end video cards, you could have an edge. I started = down this route but was working form home and didn't want the fan noise = in my environment. That was a mistake because it caused me to miss the = bubble when the first generation ASICs hit. I also cashed in my BTC at = $7 because I didn't believe there would be a bubble (even though someone = on the list, I forget who, accurately predicted it). newest miners early enough to generate a profit (barring another = bubble). There are very few technical barriers to mining other than = cash. Right now, that requires a minimum $5K investment and may not = deliver returns any time soon (if at all). That is, barring another = bubble. Arduinos. But that'd make too much sense! -=3D- blocks the network evaluates the time it took to hash those blocks. If = it generated more than the targeted 6 blocks per hour, then the hash = difficulty is increased as an efford to make it 'harder" for the network = as a whole to "guess" the hash. Currently the reward for finding a block = is 25 BTC. This reward decreases with time. The larger the difficulty, = the longer it will take a machine to guess the hash.=20 difficulty to always maintain 6 blocks per hour. =20 wrote: wrote: blocks

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Phil, did you use any of the roi calculators? Heres the results of one I ran based on your numbers: http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/bf84201e80 hope that helps. y e . se , w, me -=3D- it as 25

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ No dice. It's an ASIC, which as I understand it, means hardware dedicated to performing a single algorithm for a specific application. In the case of Bitcoin, that means searching through some space of values until you find one whose SHA-256 has the required number of leading zero bits. I'm not sure how much of this algorithm is actually hard-coded into the chips - you *might* be able to use them to compute a bunch of SHA-256 hashes for other purposes, but that would be all.

=============================================================== From: Matt Keys ------------------------------------------------------ I got my 60gh/s single today. All together now : http://tinypic.com/r/2e3sx80/5 Regards, Matt

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Hope you get your order before Kansas realizes their business license in Wyoming has been revoked, as well as in Missouri. And before the CE really gets pissed about their mark being misused.

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Stephen, Care to elaborate on your claims? Please don't tell me its from Buttcoin, as that site is full of shite and horribly wrong information. I spent about 5 minutes googleing your claims... seems false: https://www.kansas.gov/bess/flow/main?execution=e4s8 Search for Business Entity number: 4651691 (The search results aren't linkable...sorry) https://www.kssos.org/filed

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Kansas' approval of BF Labs buisness license is entirely based off their buisness in Wyoming being legitimate: https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081 They were delinquent...until 9/17 this year. Two days ago. I'll also point out they changed their business location from Casper, WY to Leawood, KS. https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/Corp.asp?3402461 Germany is turning BFL equipment back at the border for forged CE certifications. Lyn, the company is founded by a known scammer, who is charging peoples cards and then not shipping products out for MONTHS or sometimes a year after charging the card, people are filing chargebacks against him and finding he 'shipped' products that they never got. If this was ANY other company, and you charged someones card without a FIRM and FINAL delivery date, you'd get wrung through the wringer. Not to mention his awesome 'Sell your pre-order!' system. You REALLY think that is legal?

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Oh, did I forget to mention that several of their product images on their website are photoshops of ACTUAL products manufactured by other companies?

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Again, Your links appear to support the fact they have a legitmate business license. As a business owner myself, I have had my tax reporting go delinquent. I am not sure about Kansas, but in TN, I had forgot to file my quarterly returns by ONE DAY...ONE freaking DAY. Even after I had filed/paid my taxes, I still received a letter from the bureau telling me I was late. So, it appears they had a delinquency, big deal. They resolved the delinquency. No harm, no foul, even the best businesses let things slip sometimes. As long as it gets rectified I have no problem with this. As for the disolution in MS, its possible they may have to just decided to let that license lapse. Why would they need it if they did not do business in that state? Maybe they had plans to expand to MS, but those plans withered? Who knows. I do not have a business license for every state in the US, only the ones where I must collect sales tax (I only have a presence in TN, so I only need TN). I still cant find anyting noting Germany refusing BFL shipments. There were some posts on the forums with a very small number of people having issues with them clearing customs, but there are also a number of people in Germany and other parts of the EU that have had no issues receiving them. Customs is a strange thing...sometimes stuff goes through without a problem, sometimes it doesn't. I would like to see some links of your resources where you get this information for my own benefit. There are also 2 accounts on the Lug of people (Myself included) receiving their shipments, and not being scammed. Everyone knew a year ago, that when we bought our rigs, we would not get them for a long time. It was a pre-order. Yes, I went over a year before receiving my product, but I knew that well before I bought. In this same light, BFL has been superb with refunding customers whom wanted a refund, even up to almost a year after their purchase. I have yet to see valid reports of people being "scammed" by BFL. It boils down to this: 1. We knew the product would be a long time out, BEFORE we paid 2. BFL has been good at refunding customers when they ask. I haven't seen any reports of them refusing refunds (although they are a bit slow at refunds taking a day or 2 to process). 3. People are receving their rigs, enmasse. I received mine, Matt received his, and all the fols I know paitent enough to wait are receiving theirs. I have yet to hear of anyone not getting their orders or their money back. The "sell your pre-order" system was something that alot of the customers wanted. It had been requested time and time again on the BFL forums, and they relented and set it up. It's merely a classifieds system, where BFL has no part in the transaction. They do not partake in any of the sales, or managing of the person-to-person sale of thier pre-order. If I sell my pre-order for its face value, its perfectly legal to do so. I see no problems in that. What makes this illegal? The company is founded by a scammer? One of the investors did get into trouble for running a gambling website several years back. He served his time, and paid his debt to society. If he wants to invest in other businesses, I see no problem with this. Hell, we could argue that Donald Trump is a scammer...look at his success. It's just hard for me to grasp why people scream "SCAMMER!!! HISS!! HISS!!" at the company, when they have been shipping a metric crap ton of products to their customers. They missed their shipping deadline, they admitted it. They even offered to refund customers because of this. They have honored the refund requests. Now, they are shipping product, there are two eye witnesses here on the lug with their products in hand, making money from them. How does this make the company a "SCAM!!!" ? They are still, to this day, honoring refund requests, even a year after initial payment. This seems OK to me.

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Donald Trump is a scammer....a successful one, no doubt, but he is considered one of the worst people in the world: http://rt.com/business/trump-university-fraud-lawsuit-988/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/08/24/trump-university-fraud-ny/2696367/ For pete's sake, he makes most of his money from the gambling industry, its about the largest LEGAL scam you can run! I'll also point out, he didn't need his success to get him rich, daddy did that for him. You can praise BFL all you want, but for SOME reason, there is a lot of talk against them underneath all the praise from people who did get their products in the end. I'm not even trying to make this about Bitcoin. I don't care about that. There is enough reason to be suspicious of BFL, sure every startup has their road bumps, but their road is literally filled with potholes that nobody is filling, and if they are they are putting dirt in them and saying its paved.

=============================================================== From: William Roush ------------------------------------------------------ My new automatic response to all bitcoin threads: http://i.imgur.com/7fQRech.gif William Roush

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ HAH! that was actually quite funny William.

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ I bet Jon Stewart owns bitcoins.

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/425561/april-17-2013/bitcoin-plunge This is meant for laughs only.

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ Point of order, Donald trump has gone bankrupt several times while owning a Casino(license to print money). I seem to recall he longer has interests in Atlantic City. On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 16:24:33 -0400, Stephen Kraus wrote:

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ +5 On Thu, 19 Sep 2013 23:25:52 -0400, William Roush wrote:

=============================================================== From: Rod ------------------------------------------------------ So it is a fiat currency? On Fri, 20 Sep 2013 11:11:56 -0400, Stephen Kraus wrote: