OT/not sure?? Looking for software..

From: Elise Walker 
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Does anyone have a legit copy of an older version of Adobe Creative =
Suite? Local printing shop  needs to upgrade from FlexiSign - =
hardware/budget is an issue.

I'm thinking CS2/CS3 is the way to go for them.
If anyone can help out, reply and I will send you the price points they =
are looking for.
Universal binary would be awesome, but I know that may not be available.

Copying original requester in this message in case there are some =
questions I don't have the answers for.=

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Have they tried GIMP? Its free and pretty powerful. I am not sure what their requirements are, but it may be worth trying since all you would have invested is time.

=============================================================== From: Benjamin Stewart ------------------------------------------------------ Without trying to spark a flamewar, I've used both Gimp and PS. They're both great tools, but in my experience, it's really hard to switch from whichever one you learn first. They simply approach the problem with opposite ways of thinking. That said, one of them is free, and the other is not! :-)

=============================================================== From: Aaron Welch ------------------------------------------------------ GIMP does not do well in print shops where they have to deal with obscure dr= ivers and other randomness from the printer manufacturers. It requires too m= uch effort to get it working and if it breaks there is no one to call. -AW heir requirements are, but it may be worth trying since all you would have i= nvested is time. te: Local printing shop needs to upgrade from FlexiSign - hardware/budget is a= n issue. e looking for. s I don't have the answers for.

=============================================================== From: Christopher Rimondi ------------------------------------------------------ I think we have the upgrades for CS4 and CS5 at the house. What are your price points for them?

=============================================================== From: Elise Walker ------------------------------------------------------ They really need cs 2 or cs3.=20 They have tried gimp and inkscape. Inkscape has issues with .eps files = (which is why I stopped using it completely). You can save .eps files = buuuut don't try to open them again if you need to make changes.. = because the file will either be completely blank for no reason and you = will get an error that your data was lost.. or just get an error that = the file is corrupt and refuse to open. SO you've lost all of your work = on that project. Gimp does not have a simple/intuitive way to handle = half-tone screening...In CS I only have to specify the line screen and = the angle once.. in GIMP you have to specify 4/5 different values and I = have never had luck with it accurately producing the line screen as I = KNOW from experience it should look - unless they have changed something = since I used it last. This person has tried GIMP/inkscape and refuses = to use them due to these and many more issues - I won't go into a huge = amount of detail. I am showing used copies of cs3 selling for $300 online. Which I am sure = is what they are looking at too and freaking out a little. Their budget is around $200. I say CS3 is the way to go, because in CS3 they actually got live = tracing (same as inkscapes trace bitmap which is the only thing I kept = inkscape around for in the first place) - is really handy if you are = trying to redraw for instance a photograph of someone into a vector = image... or a really complex mechanical sketch into vector. Also, once = you get up to CS4 adobe just started messing with the layout of the = program for no good reason and hiding most of it's more useful features = behind bells and whistles.. (Really... no I don't want a pretty = toolbar.. I don't want "mini-bridge" I just want the tools I had to = begin with + live trace!!!!) (don't get me wrong - I still prefer to draw with the pen tool and the = different shapes available in the program - but have you ever tried to = turn a dusty dirty black and white photo from the 20's into a vector = image? yeah... found out it's not that easy without live trace!) Adobe Bridge - most annoying "innovation" Adobe has come out with yet. = }: | your price points for them? wrote: Suite? Local printing shop needs to upgrade from FlexiSign - = hardware/budget is an issue. they are looking for. available. questions I don't have the answers = for.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ If this drives a vinyl cutter, they need the right software. And especially printer drivers. The radius of the knife and how you order the cuts is important. You might be able to get Inkscape to work. If you were really really careful, but at $$$/hr for labor, good software for sign making makesfinancial sense.

=============================================================== From: "K. Elise Walker" ------------------------------------------------------ Right. But here is the problem. The shop doesn't do vinyl cutting. They do screen printing, etc. Their graphic artist is trying to design for many different print processes and all they have been provided to use is FlexiSign - for every single project/print process, etc So, he has talked his boss into seeing if they can find a used copy of Creative Suite to add to their software. Inkscape has one perk, in that it is free.. However, it never saves/opens .eps files properly. Both myself, and the graphic artist I am searching for this software for have had the exact same issues with Inkscape and it is why we both refuse to use it any more. There are many layout/publishing/design programs (APT Falcon is one that springs to mind) that rely primarily on .eps files (yeah I know APT Falcon is mainly for web press but it was the first example that sprang to mind.. apples to oranges but it is an example of a design/publishing software some might be familiar with in this line of work).. also if customer sends in .eps files (which we see ALOT of - more than you would think) you're kind of up the creek when you try to open it in Inkscape and start getting corruption/blank file errors for no reason. Yes, Inkscape is free. But if you have to spend more time fighting with a program, than using the program to do actual work, it's not worth it.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ If the cost of Abobe's creative suite is an issue: Perhaps they need to re-evaluate their concept of being a viable business. IF I was going to get into that business today, I would expect to drop some serious cash on design workstations. A minimum of a top of the line Mac, A Windows system, AND a Linux system, with lots of ram, great displays, and they latest and best software for each. Color corrected displays, pantone corrected test printers.. Why Mac and Windows: Because that's what most customers incoming artwork will be on.. Probably mostly Mac w/Adobe products. Why Linux; Because sometimes it can do magic nothing else can do.

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ If cost is really that much of an issue, you can now "rent" Creative Suite by the month. And having a Windows box on the artists' desks is important if they are producing content that will be viewed on Windows computers. The way Macs and PCs display color is oddly "different". What looks good on a Mac may look terrible on a PC. It used to be the gamma on Macs was about 20% higher than PCs but there seems to be something else going on. You don't want to color-correct the display on the PC either because PC users generally don't have corrected displays. As for keeping a Linux box around... That's what VirtualBox is for! But I agree, it's quite useful to force a Mac person to do stuff in Linux. It makes them much better Mac users! Similarly, if you force a Windows sysadmin to work solely in Linux for a while, they will become much better Windows administrators. And if every computer you own isn't maxed out on RAM and booting off SSD, you are wasting your life. -Eric -=--=---=----=----=---=--=-=--=---=----=---=--=-=- Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ If you are doing that kind of stuff definately! Amen brother, Amen! In a place where time is money.. faster systems make money. I'm finding cores are important as well. It's useful to be able to max one or two out, and still do other things. I'm starting to wish MySQL used them better. Adam will probably chime in with: Use PostgreSQL ;)

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ My main workstation at home has a 120GB SSD for boot and applications and a 240GB SSD for data. It's a Core i7 running at 4GHz with 32GB of RAM. Since my primary application is still 32-bit, I set up a 16GB RAM Disk and point TMP at it. I've had clients who were watching my screen via screen sharing who had to pick their jaws up off the floor as I moved through their large datasets. What's funny is my workstation could be rebuilt today for less than $1000. The expensive part of a decent workstation, today, are the displays. I have dual 22" LCDs but I've wanted to try a 30" with two 19" displays in portrait mode the sides. I work with a lot of documents in traditional 8.5x11 format. Being able to work with two separate documents at actual size significantly improves my productivity. But those documents are based on some serious analysis. So I need a decent amount of screen space for those tools. I haven't made the jump yet because I really want Retina/IPS resolutions on those displays. Until that's cost-effective, I'll just stick with my 2x22 setup. -Eric -=--=---=----=----=---=--=-=--=---=----=---=--=-=- Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ That reminds me, I really need to upgrade my desktop system when I get home... and yes, the displays (4) need to be the most expensive part.. I've been working with a slightly tweaked Ubunty 12.04 laptop with Unity and figured it out: I love it when using a crappy projector at 1024x768 and using desktops as windows. I hate it when using it at 1920x1050 and trying to use actual program windows. The hardest part will be comng up with a modern GUI that works well with lots of screeen real estate. I want -some- of the new shiny stuff.. but not all. I gotta admit, the Mac GUI walks a fine line between both, but Unity is for netbooks and tablets.. not serious power users.

=============================================================== From: Aaron welch ------------------------------------------------------ I have a replacement desktop for you. HP XW9400 workstation with dual QC Opterons. :+P -AW

=============================================================== From: Elise Walker ------------------------------------------------------ He has absolutely no need for new hardware. All he needs is Creative = Suite CS2 or CS3. He specifically asked me for an older version.=20 I'm not sure how being on a budget implies not being successful - but = it's all good. I will find the software elsewhere.=

=============================================================== From: "Alex Smith (K4RNT)" ------------------------------------------------------ Then I will be wasting my life until I can afford 64GB of RAM into my next rig and can afford an Intel 600GB SSD... *rolls eyes* " ' With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on we=E2=80=99re all damaged." - Jean-Luc Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie, Star Trek: TNG episode "The Drumhead" - Alex Smith (K4RNT) - Dulles Technology Corridor (Chantilly/Ashburn/Dulles), Virginia USA

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ In 1991, Dan Lyke and I worked at a small company in North Chatt that made some software. On leading-edge machines (16Mhz 286s), it took about 20 minutes to compile and link the program. And that was with 2MB of EMS on an expansion card which reduced the link time from 45 minutes to about 10 minutes. We still got a lot of reading done... Those machines cost ~$2000 each, about $1000 of that was the 2MB EMS card. 3xCrucial M4 256GB SSDs $555 64GB EVO Corsa DDR3 1333 RAM $369 Total: $924 If you spend your life sitting in front of a computer and your ability to earn money is tied to how quickly you can get that computer to produce results, $924 is pretty freakin' cheap. -Eric -=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-= =3D- Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734 t ,

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ I believe that that was to compile and link a change to the program. If I remember right, we had an overnight process that did the full recompile and that took hours, but a link took 14 minutes, and if you changed a couple of headers that impacted other C files, even an incremental compile could take 5 or 6 minutes. One thing to look at is: What's your cost of capital vs cost of employee? In most processes in the United States, the employee is relatively expensive and exploring ways to leverage their efforts by spending on "capital" improvements (quoted because the 3 year or so depreciation curve on computer equipment is fairly short term by some measures of capital) is the way to grow.

=============================================================== From: Ed King ------------------------------------------------------ I maxed out the memory on my first computer... I thought I was total bad-ass when I installed that 128K memory expansion dim into my Tandy 1000...

=============================================================== From: Jason Brown ------------------------------------------------------ I added a 40MB MFM HDD to mine, wasn't easy... (Tandy 1000HX). 1200bps modem 3.5" *and* 5.25" DD floppy drives I couldn't afford the memory expansion though.. Went into credit card debt for the first time buying a dot matrix printer for the damn thing. --Jason

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ I had a Tandy 1200 - which was actually a true IBM clone. It came with 256KB RAM and dual 360KB floppies. My first upgrade was an NEC V20 chip which replaced the Intel 8088. Still ran at 4.77Mhz but several instructions executed in few clock cycles. After I got my first programming gig, I upgraded the RAM to 640KB and put a Seagate ST238R (30MB) hard drive in it. Those were the days! -Eric -=--=---=----=----=---=--=-=--=---=----=---=--=-=- Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ Laughing. Sad part is, I have no clue if that's good or not. I'm not a hardware geek like you, I tend to try to buy the best I can afford, when I can, and abuse it until it just won't work any more. What I am good at, is extremely arcane stuff: This bald pudgy white guy from Tennessee is putting Linux servers in Benin W. Africa, Ubuntu Linux of course. And for weird reasons, that is just hilarious. My FOSS win of the day: IT guy for the utility here needs a mail server. I toss Lddrryl (spelling/pronounciation?) an Ubuntu 12.04 386 Server CD, and off he goes.. It'll take all night to do apt-get update, but it'll run on a junk IBM tower with 1gb of ram.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ It depends on what you do. Eric does GIS stuff with obtuse datasets, which is some ways, is like dealing with large images or vectors.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I want to max out my rig at 16 GB of RAM (I've got 8 GB atm). I'm not at all sold on the SSD thing. I want storage and I don't want to pay a $1 per GB to get it. My 7200 RPM 750 GB drive is plenty for me for now. * * *- Chad W. Smith* t ,

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ FYI: NewEgg has the 120GB OCZ Agility III that I use as my boot drive for $69.99: http://www.newegg.com/Special/ShellShocker.aspx?cm

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I'm used to 10=A2 a Gig - not 50=A2 or $1. And yes - in the past, storage costs more than it does now. But I'm not comparing 1984's prices with 2012's - I'm talking about today's money and today's market. I could see paying more for SSD - but not 5 or 10 or 15 times more. And it's not just cost - [although that's more than enough for me at this point] - it's the small storage sizes available. Most of them are 120 GB, some ate 256 GB. The absolute highest 2.5" SATA SSD drive I've seen (full SSD - not "hybrid") is 512 GB - and those are rare and about $400 - again close to $1 per GB (ok, closer to 78=A2 per Gig, but still closer to $1 tha= n 10=A2). I'm already nearly ready to swap out my 750 GB for something bigger= . And "bigger" SSDs just do not exist. *- Chad W. Smith*

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ Wow! You must be super productive to need that much data storage! My "Docs" folder is < 7GB. It contains pretty much everything I've worked on over the past 20 years outside of code (1.4GB), my MS thesis (12.5GB) and my PhD dissertation (also 12.5GB), and my work for the USGS (2.5GB). I do keep a huge spate of geospatial data on my computer for reference ( , han er. r

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ The boot, and access and read times from an ssd are pretty spectacular. Enough so that I will never use a platter drive as my os drive again. I have 4 SSD's. 3 120 and a 256 across all my machines. I keep my bulk storage in 6 tb of raid 6 storage on my network. Besides the speeds, I added 1.5 to 2 hours of extra battery life to my Dell e5420 laptop by pulling the stock wd black and running the 256 ssd. Fedora boots to the login in about 8 seconds from cold boot. My SSD's were well worth it :-) I ut ed -=3D- d s B, l n than ger.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Yes because work is the only thing to use a computer for, smartass. Besides the fact that I do enjoy electronic entertainment in many forms (games, movies, music, books) - I actually /do/ have hundreds of gigs of work data. I'm a designer, so my work doesn't amount to basically text - which is what coding is, text. So my work takes up a lot more room. I produce videos - edit audio - images - huge, multi-layer photoshop files and desktop publishing files - some numbering for multiple hundreds of pages... You do the math, tiff files at 1200 dpi, HD 1080p raw videos, I have mp3 files that are bigger than 100 MB each - that's compressed / lossy stuff at 100 MB. So just because your work can be stored in .txt files doesn't mean everyone's can. *- Chad W. Smith*

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ You don't have to be insulting, dipshit. ;) I'm a designer, That's all you had to say. And this is one of quandaries of working in digital technology. The class of "programmer" enjoys a higher salary and better "optimization" of the technology. Designers are greatly enabled by the technology but y'all are always having to pay a premium to maintain lower wages. When I worked in games, it was just before Alias Maya was released for Windows. The designers typically worked on hardware that cost the equivalent of 2-3 years' salary. I guess this rift came from the fact that you can build technology without designers but you can't build it without the geeks. Despite the fact that design can make or break a product. I blame the pointy-haired managers! -Eric

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ What is it with threadjacking on this lists? ----- Original Message -----

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ Here come the thread-Nazis! -=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-=3D--=3D---=3D----=3D---=3D--=3D-= =3D- Eric B. Wolf 720-334-7734

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ IKR! Remember when Chugalug used to be about the free exchange of ideas without regard to proper subject line editing? Remember when any discussion, no matter what it was originally about, could evolve or devolve into a flamewar about why Microsoft is or is not the Devil? Or how Apple software really does or does not belong on the CHUGALUG (is it Unix or not?!?!)? Or how emacs is objectively BETTER than vim? Speaking of - emacs or vim - GO! *- Chad W. Smith* -=3D-

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ What.. your conversations always start and end on the same topic? Boring! And I learned a lot from that one. Gonna have to play with SSD drives ona database server.. At least for temp space :)

=============================================================== From: Jason Brown ------------------------------------------------------ Good info on MySQL on SSD's and performance tuning: http://codemonkey.ravelry.com/2011/05/09/so-you-want-to-run-mysql-on-ssds/ and: http://www.mysqlperformanceblog.com/search/mysql+ssd/ In general it seems that more RAM makes a bigger difference than SSD. I still want to get some and try them out though. --Jason

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Emacs Means Advanced Carpal Syndrome. Next! t n =3D-=3D-

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ lol That made me picture Sheldon Cooper and Amy Farrah Fowler having a discussion about something - coming to a conclusion - and saying something like, Sheldon - "That was a lively and intellectually stimulating conversation. I thank you for your participation." AFF - "Indeed, and you as well." slight pause Sheldon - "Should we begin a new conversation on a different topic?" AFF - "Perhaps, but isn't the question itself actually starting a conversation about the possibility of beginning a new conversation?" Sheldon - "Well, I suppose, but I didn't really wish to have a meta discussion about the possibility of discussing something nor the semantics of suggesting a topic of conversation." AFF - "It isn't a matter of semantics - it is a literal fact. If you ask a question about starting a conversation to someone else, you have - by definition - began a conversation with them. I see no room for debate on that subject, and find it odd that you do." *- Chad W. Smith*

=============================================================== From: Dee Holtsclaw ------------------------------------------------------ Although I'm sure a 5-second boot time benefits Windows users more, it is nice nonetheless. I sym-linked MySQL to a subdir under /home where the HDD is mounted. Swap is also on the HDD. Ought to do the same with /tmp, just haven't yet. Don't want to wear out the SSD prematurely ...

=============================================================== From: Tom Wilson ------------------------------------------------------ Emacs is only superior to VIM in terms of being baroque. Emacs is the bolt-on-fins and fart pipe muffler of the editor world. MAC OSX is what the Linux desktop should have been. (Consumer side) Microsoft is thrashing around in the tar pits while small mammals look on. Think IBM at the tail end of the PS/2 era. Spot welding a phone/tablet interface onto the Windows desktop and putting kickstands and keyboards onto iPads, while amusing, isn't going to stave off the inevitable. There. I'm sure I have ticked *someone* off.