Are Android and Linux the same thing?

From: Rod-Lists 
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You don't have be a person who calls Red Hat and Ubuntu different OS' to say no.
http://www.itworld.com/mobile-wireless/179875/are-android-and-linux-same-thing

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Linux is linux. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Adam Jimerson ------------------------------------------------------ Android is a distribution of Linux just like Gentoo, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Arch, openSUSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Mint, etc... If Android is not a distribution of Linux then I wonder why my Nexus One is running the 2.6.37 Linux kernel...

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ I disagree. The article makes a good point. Adobe is pulling support for Adobe Air for regular Linux while continuing support for Android. Adobe Air exists only in user space. Your typical linux distro API's are far different than Android. An Android app doesn't run as easily on "linux" as say a KDE app in gnome. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Jimerson" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 6:31:30 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? Android is a distribution of Linux just like Gentoo, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Arch, openSUSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Mint, etc... If Android is not a distribution of Linux then I wonder why my Nexus One is running the 2.6.37 Linux kernel... Linux is linux. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya You don't have be a person who calls Red Hat and Ubuntu different OS' to say no. http://www.itworld.com/mobile-wireless/179875/are-android-and-linux-same-thing

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ This is one of those stupid pointless geek-only arguments that do nothing more than let nerds flex their rant muscle and try to see whose is bigger. I should know. I rant. it's like saying "Well, *nerdsnort* Windows XP and Windows 7 aren't actually the same OS, because there are applications that only run on WIndows 7 - and there are other applications that only run on Windows XP." And then things like "XP mode" and kernals and blah blah blah Heck one could argue that since OS X Lion won't run Rosetta, it, too, is a different OS than OS X Snow Leopard. Who the FRACK cares? It's all semantics. At the core - Linux is a kernel, and not an operating system - ergo, anything that uses the Linux kernel - even a modified version of it - *IS* Linux. It doesn't matter if that operating system is a headless remote CLI-only thing, like Stephen's toaster, or a TiVo, or YAXC (yet another XP clone), or a cell phone, or a super computer.... Linux is Linux is Linux is Linux. There are differences between Desktop Linux Distros, are there not? The whole RPM vs DEB thing - from my understanding you can install *ONE* of those - not both. Then there's Gnome, KDE, Fluxbox, etc.. Does the desktop environment make it a different operating system? Well, yes and no. It's just a matter of how you - personally, at that particular moment, for that particular set of circumstances - define the term operating system. There will be times that a particular flavor of a BSD OS will look and feel and behave more like a particular flavor of Linux OS than another flavor of Linux OS. The BSD and Linux-A OSes will be defined by some as "the same OS" - more than the other flavor of Linux. Such as, if BSD and Linux-A had the same desktop and apps, and Linux-B looked completely different. And the people making that claim would not be "wrong" - it's just a matter of how you define the term. Semantics. There is no right and wrong here. If you work through the definition of the terms - then there will be a right and a wrong. But just throwing it out there - undefined - there's a ton of room of disagreement. Even saying "Well if the apps for one won't work on the other, then they aren't the same OS" doesn't work. What if you have a Windows program that needs .NET to run - and you have 2 identical Windows boxes - both running the exact same release of Windows 7 Professional 64-bit - same hardware specs. But one has .NET installed and the other doesn't. The app will run on one box, but not the other - does that mean they are 2 different Operating Systems? I can run Internet Explorer 9, MS Publisher 2010, and other Windows-only apps on my Macbook under OS X - does that mean OS X is the same OS as Windows 7? Or am I running two OSes on top of each other? All I am saying is it gets very complicated and impossible to come to a definitive answer if you don't define your terms. First tell me - completely - what is an operating system - and then ask if Android and Linux are the same thing. (Of course - I'd have to get you to strictly define "Linux" and "Android" as well.) But - don't bother doing that for my sake, because I understand that as you give the definitions, you will be answering your own question. I've already got my definitions and my answer, so I'm cool. But, hey, knock yourself out with your rant flexing. Just be aware that's all your doing. :) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Tom Wilson ------------------------------------------------------ This pretty much sums up the argument. Calling a Java VM sitting atop a heavily modified Linux kernel a "Linux distro" is stretching semantics beyond their breaking point.

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ I believe Chad summed it up nicely This pretty much sums up the argument. Calling a Java VM sitting atop a heavily modified Linux kernel a "Linux distro" is stretching semantics beyond their breaking point.

=============================================================== From: William Wade ------------------------------------------------------ Chad the one thing that might upend your arguments is how much of the kernel from Android has been changed. The two kernels have still not been successfully merged. There are a lot of Android changes that have not been accepted upstream into the kernel. Google has been slowly working toward it, and some kernel developers have as well, but you could say until they are merged that Android is only a fork of Linux. http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/android-kernel-problems.html Has some of the info, search for more... Wil . lly and things a * ote P Linux is The s the desktop =C2=A0 It's t el of same OS" had the r wrong here. ght ton of m that =A0 The app will run f you to ou y, knock doing. ary g e. 37 to me-thing

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ however it is used to denote an operating system right or wrong. in that sense android & linux are not the same. To the point of the original article is it proper for Adobe to say it is supporting linux and using Adobe Air for Android as example. Especially since they are no longer supporting Air on Linux. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Wilson" To: chugalug@chugalug.org Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 10:01:33 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? This pretty much sums up the argument. Calling a Java VM sitting atop a heavily modified Linux kernel a "Linux distro" is stretching semantics beyond their breaking point.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ But did he read the article? Does android app count as linux support? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Kraus" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 10:03:20 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? I believe Chad summed it up nicely Calling a Java VM sitting atop a heavily modified Linux kernel a "Linux distro" is stretching semantics beyond their breaking point.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ a point they made in the article. I don't think chad read it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Wade" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 10:04:55 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? Chad the one thing that might upend your arguments is how much of the kernel from Android has been changed. The two kernels have still not been successfully merged. There are a lot of Android changes that have not been accepted upstream into the kernel. Google has been slowly working toward it, and some kernel developers have as well, but you could say until they are merged that Android is only a fork of Linux. http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/android-kernel-problems.html Has some of the info, search for more... Wil . lly and things a * ote P Linux is The s the desktop =C2=A0 It's t el of same OS" had the r wrong here. ght ton of m that =A0 The app will run f you to ou y, knock doing. ary g e. 37 to me-thing

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Yes "he" read the article. Yes, it's appropriate. Adobe cannot control which of Google's kernel changes get adopted. In the wild world of Linux, you can't possibly expect any one app to run on every distro that exists. if Adobe supports *one* flavor of Linux - then they support Linux - case closed. Its up to the uber-smart Linux user to figure out if that applies to him or not. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Well did see you see this? " Adobe's director of standards and open source Dave McAllister was very clear about specifying that Adobe would be dropping desktop Linux support for Adobe Air as of version 2.7 when he made the announcement last month " Android has a different API layer. what runs on android won't run on linux without jumping thru some hoops. Just because I can jump thru those hoops doen't make them same OS. If it did then because wine exists windows and linux are the same. You wouldn't argue that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 11:13:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? Yes "he" read the article. Yes, it's appropriate. Adobe cannot control which of Google's kernel changes get adopted. In the wild world of Linux, you can't possibly expect any one app to run on every distro that exists. if Adobe supports *one* flavor of Linux - then they support Linux - case closed. Its up to the uber-smart Linux user to figure out if that applies to him or not. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya But did he read the article? Does android app count as linux support? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Kraus" < ub3ratl4sf00@gmail.com > To: "CHUGALUG" < chugalug@chugalug.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 10:03:20 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? I believe Chad summed it up nicely Calling a Java VM sitting atop a heavily modified Linux kernel a "Linux distro" is stretching semantics beyond their breaking point.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I was already pretty clear on my stance. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Then based on Chads arguement openDarwin & OSX are the same. Is that what you are saying chad? They do share an API layer unlike Android, Chrome OS, & linux. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Kraus" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 10:03:20 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? I believe Chad summed it up nicely Calling a Java VM sitting atop a heavily modified Linux kernel a "Linux distro" is stretching semantics beyond their breaking point.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ For the love of Tux - just read what I wrote already. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ tl;dr -Cameron Sent via an Android phone February

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Quoting from earlier this morning: "This is one of those stupid pointless geek-only arguments..." "All I am saying is it gets very complicated and impossible to come to a definitive answer if you don't define your terms. First tell me - completely - what is an operating system - and then ask if Android and Linux are the same thing. (Of course - I'd have to get you to strictly define "Linux" and "Android" as well.) But - don't bother doing that for my sake, because I understand that as you give the definitions, you will be answering your own question. I've already got my definitions and my answer, so I'm cool. But, hey, knock yourself out with your rant flexing. Just be aware that's all your doing." - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Your problem - not mine If you want to know what I'm saying - read what I said. If you can't be bothered to read it - I won't be bothered to summarize it. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ you made a definitive statement that because they share a kernel they are the same. Then walked away from it a bit. I was referencing an article that was noting the different application layers and whether Adobe can still claim to support linux when it was ending desktop linux support. Just because a company writes android apps can it be said it is supporting Linux? I don't thinks so but just me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 12:11:53 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? Quoting from earlier this morning: "This is one of those stupid pointless geek-only arguments..." "All I am saying is it gets very complicated and impossible to come to a definitive answer if you don't define your terms. First tell me - completely - what is an operating system - and then ask if Android and Linux are the same thing. (Of course - I'd have to get you to strictly define "Linux" and "Android" as well.) But - don't bother doing that for my sake, because I understand that as you give the definitions, you will be answering your own question. I've already got my definitions and my answer, so I'm cool. But, hey, knock yourself out with your rant flexing. Just be aware that's all your doing." - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya For the love of Tux - just read what I wrote already. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya Then based on Chads arguement openDarwin & OSX are the same. Is that what you are saying chad? They do share an API layer unlike Android, Chrome OS, & linux. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Kraus" < ub3ratl4sf00@gmail.com > To: "CHUGALUG" < chugalug@chugalug.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 10:03:20 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are Android and Linux the same thing? I believe Chad summed it up nicely Calling a Java VM sitting atop a heavily modified Linux kernel a "Linux distro" is stretching semantics beyond their breaking point.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I definitively said because they share a kernel - they are both "LINUX". I also definitively said "LINUX" is not an operating system. Ergo, I did *NOT* say they are the same operating system. I definitively stated that I cannot definitively say if they are the same "Operating System" or not without an agreed upon definitive working definition of that term, as well as the other terms in question. So, yes, if a company makes an Android app, they can definitively say "We support Linux" because they do. They cannot say "We support all Linux distros" or "most" or "the major" or any such thing - but they can say they support Linux. And I have an Android (not Chrome) netbook - so they could even say they support "Desktop Linux" if they wanted to be ballsy about it. (And no - not just because *I* personally have that netbook - but because such devices exist, and are marketed and sold that way.) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ I can access console, root, and execute linux/unix commands....I think that at least makes the core linux I definitively said because they share a kernel - they are both "LINUX". I also definitively said "LINUX" is not an operating system. Ergo, I did *NOT* say they are the same operating system. I definitively stated that I cannot definitively say if they are the same "Operating System" or not without an agreed upon definitive working definition of that term, as well as the other terms in question. So, yes, if a company makes an Android app, they can definitively say "We support Linux" because they do. They cannot say "We support all Linux distros" or "most" or "the major" or any such thing - but they can say they support Linux. And I have an Android (not Chrome) netbook - so they could even say they support "Desktop Linux" if they wanted to be ballsy about it. (And no - not just because *I* personally have that netbook - but because such devices exist, and are marketed and sold that way.) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 20...

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Is Mac OS X Linux? That is a very similar question in my mind.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Mac OS X is in no way Linux. It is Unix - but not Linux. It does not use a Linux Kernel. It uses a BSD kernel. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Fine. Is OS X BSD?

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Furthermore, can Adobe claim that Photoshop supports BSD? I think that would be a pretty misleading, even a ridiculous claim.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.apple.com/gw/macosx/ Scroll down. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ OS X is based on BSD. It is not BSD but they share the same origins. It makes it a type of UNIX OS Furthermore, can Adobe claim that Photoshop supports BSD? I think that would be a pretty misleading, even a ridiculous claim. ...

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/technology/unix.html - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ Is that what you're talking about? "Built on a UNIX foundation" is a good way to say it, just as Android is "built on a Linux foundation." However, saying that someone supports UNIX just because they have an OS X program, or that they support Linux because they have an Android app, is deceptive and wrong - misleading at best. That's the point the article was making.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Mac OS X *is* Unix - there is no way you can possibly deny that. It is not every type of Unix - it is not 100% compatible with every other distro of Unix on the market - but it Unix. " [image: Unix. Rock Solid.] Mac OS X Server is built on a fully compliant UNIX foundation. This battle-tested core provides the stability, performance, and security that organizations require. And full UNIX conformance ensures compatibility with existing server and application software. Mac OS X Server is the ideal platform for deploying groundbreaking enterprise applications and services." "Fully compliant" - "full UNIX conformance" Sounds pretty much definitive to me. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Tom Wilson ------------------------------------------------------ If this train of logic continues, you may as well ask if Windows NT and beyond are VMS.

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 06 Jul 2011 14:09:03 -0400 Tom Wilson wrote: Sir. You sully the memory of what was a fine operating system. (Besides, Windows lacks enough "$" signs in system calls to qualify as a child of VMS.) Dan

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Ok - as I said from the beginning - until someone DEFINES THE TERMS - this is absolutely batshit pointless. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Kenneth Ratliff ------------------------------------------------------ Arch, openSUSE, Mandriva, Fedora, Mint, etc... If Android is not a = distribution of Linux then I wonder why my Nexus One is running the = 2.6.37 Linux kernel... Riiiiight. And Mac OS X is just another distribution of FreeBSD.=

=============================================================== From: Tom Wilson ------------------------------------------------------ I've always had massive respect for Dave Cutler. The VMS file system was a work of art.

=============================================================== From: Tom Wilson ------------------------------------------------------ IRQLs, the executive, memory strategies and the I/O subsystem sure point to the lineage though :)

=============================================================== From: David Shellabarger ------------------------------------------------------ This is a decent job at describing what Android is. Android is a software stack for mobile devices that includes an operating system, middleware and key applications. http://developer.android.com/guide/basics/what-is-android.html

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 No it's Unix, but because of silly things such as copyrights, we can't actually call it Unix. I don't know why... I can see why one would question whether or not a device that runs a (modified) Linux kernel could still be called Linux, no idea why something based on a BSD kernel would make you suspect it was Linux... Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk4U1aUACgkQABP1RO+tr2T0bgCeOQ+n4P6kxn4jS8bPdZ1/ROSG qpwAn3FNr8A0pliVSBlIStozIyR8Exux =6JtT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Yes. Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk4U1b4ACgkQABP1RO+tr2SSNACdGmHNnbwEStwjmT6zarVkMnwH b4sAoJbO4uKSpSsMH8a9QEpBck6z1suG =/QJA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 NT40, Yes! 2000 was VMS w/ OpenBSD's TCP/IP stack! Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk4U1mgACgkQABP1RO+tr2SfAACfbPlqzEIULKl1u0LsqU+z1v/D zMgAn0uo5VKuJF4SbzuqxFmC5/RHL7XN =UX+Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----