Are one of you bitcoin mining?

From: Stephen Haywood 
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http://chattanooga.craigslist.org/bar/2457804746.html

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ I'm mining but this isn't my ad.

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ I don't understand this guy's proposition. He gives me a graphics card? Then I let him use it, keeping it under pretty good strain and heat the whole time?

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ He's trying to cut out the cost of the electricity. He may also be out of room where he is to add on more cards.

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ I am running a Bitcoin mining rig. I am using 3 ATI HD5850's and an ATI HD5870. I manage to get around 1400 to 1500 MHash/sec with it. It has earned me a fairly good income so far :) But this isnt my ad.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ How much does one earn "mining" - in dollars? - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Considering how vulnerable bitcoin has been found to be lately, I will be avoiding it How much does one earn "mining" - in dollars? - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ Bitcoin diffculty increases as more coins come into existence, so in order to make more you'll be investing greater hardware into mining. This means that your odds of recouperating costs such as hardware, bandwidth, and power will grow at a greater pace than any revenue made unless you plan to steal such elements, like run a bunch of Sheevaplugs in inconspicuous places. That, political discourse, and the recent password hack at MtGox should be like kryptonite to anyone with a brain. -Cameron Sent via an Android phone

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ I am going to completely disagree with the "anyone with a brain" comment. I have had my rig for several months now, and I have generated a SUBSTANTIAL income from it. Don't let the recent attack on Mt.Gox scare you, there are many many other exchanges out there that trade at equally high amounts. I got into mining recently and have done much research on it. I have yet to see any stability issues. There was a huge run on the currency as it received alot of press in the past few months, and flooded the exchanges with folks making a run on buying the currency, which drove the price fairly high. The price has since settled to a stable price of around $15 per BTC. As for the difficulty, sure its a killer. But the increase in difficulty was again brought on by the massive influx of miners from all the recent press. Difficulty changes can be negative as well as positive, so a these new miners come online, and wuss out because they arent making the millions they thought they would, they will leave and difficulty goes down (all hypothetical of course, but my point is the same). I have not invested in any more hardware than I had when I first started mining, and I still make about the same amount per day. BTC price is driven by supply and demand, so as difficulty increases, less coins are mined, and less are available on the exchanges. So price will increase and offset the lost miner production due to the higher difficulty. In a nutshell, I have been through quite a few difficulty increases, and my total USD per day income has YET to decrease. Quite the contrary it has usually INCREASED. But, with all that said, mining isn't for everyone. For me, I absolutley love it. I got to build a sweet rig, and it sits under my desk....essentially pooping out money on a daily basis!! :)

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Sorry, but Cameron just got this COMPLETELY wrong. Difficulty does not increase as the number of coins increases. Difficulty increases in an attempt to regulate the production of new blocks in the block chain. The Bitcoin network is designed to produce 1 block every 10 minutes. If the network has gained enough hashing capacity to produce more than 1 block per 10 minutes, then the difficulty is increased to make it harder to produce the next blocks. Ideally, the difficulty will adjust out so that regardless of how much hashing power is brought online, the network will only be able to generate that 1 block every 10 minutes. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the total amount of coins already in circulation. Like I mentioned in a previous reply, as the demand of bitcoins rises, and the supply is held constant (1 block every 10 minutes) the price will naturally follow suit and rise. Its simple supply / demand. Difficulty has had an almost 0 impact on the amount of USD I am making from my rig every day. Message: 22 Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 01:12:24 -0400 From: Cameron Kilgore Subject: Re: [Chugalug] Are one of you bitcoin mining? To: CHUGALUG Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bitcoin diffculty increases as more coins come into existence, so in order to make more you'll be investing greater hardware into mining. This means that your odds of recouperating costs such as hardware, bandwidth, and power will grow at a greater pace than any revenue made unless you plan to steal such elements, like run a bunch of Sheevaplugs in inconspicuous places. That, political discourse, and the recent password hack at MtGox should be like kryptonite to anyone with a brain. -Cameron Sent via an Android phone

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Can someone please explain? I get that: - BitCoin is a form of virtual currency that can be exchanged for goods and services from those who choose to accept it - There is some sort of process happening on the computers that earns you bitcoins What I don't get is: - What the computers are doing - What are they processing? - Why would someone pay you for this? - Are they just artibratially sending math to your computer and whoever lets it run the longest gets paid? (I ask this because of the repeated references to "Difficulty increases" - I mean, if they are actually trying to accomplish something, how can that make that something harder or easier?) - How the BitCoin people determine who gets what - How much BitCoin you can "earn" by letting your computer run - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ All of the computers on the p2p network are working together to create a chain of blocks. Every transaction is contained in these blocks. Bitcoins are found by running hashes at a very fast rate. Mining for bitcoins is essentially throwing a bunch of random hashes out trying to generate a hash that has a numeric value lower than a target. The difficulty is based on how low this target is. The target is adjusted by the p2p network, not some bitcoin authority. It's based on how fast blocks of new bitcoins are being found. The difficulty changes based on how fast the new blocks of coins are being produced, and strives to keep block generations at around 1 block every 10 minutes. It's a lot of cryptography, but very interesting. Here's a wiki link discussing how difficulty works. I may explain it better than I could. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Difficulty

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ But what is the "block" - what is it for - what is it doing? I mean, what's the end result? - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Chad, Bitcoing is more than just a virtual currency. It is a Peer-to-Peer currency. There is no central group, government, or person that controls bitcoin. Once you run the Bitcoin client, you are apart of the Bitcoin network, and as such, are a part in enforcing the algorithms, and "rules" that control Bitcoin. It is virtually impossible for any one person, or entity to obtain control over bitcoin and manage the price artificially as we do with the U.S. Dollar. To do that, one would have to own and then maintain 51% of the hashing power across the entire network. The computers are simply hashing an algorithm in order to find a block. Once the block has been found by you, your client presents it to the network for confirmation. Every single person on the network will confirm that block, and if your has was successful, you will be rewarded with a 50 Bitcoins. Another benefit of finding these blocks is that you "attach" transactions to it when its submitted to the network. These transactions could be where Joe sent Sally 5 Bitcoins to pay for a sweater. So, block discovery is the heart of bitcoin. It is also called "mining" because it is very akin to mining for gold. As for how much you can make by running your computer, it varies wildy with your hashing power. Right now, hashing blocks on your GPU is the fastest way to produce a block. There are alot of folks looking at ASIC and FPGA as a better way to hash, but its still very experimental. As an example of the returns you can get, I can earn about $25 to $30 per day with my rig. This is assuming the price of bitcoins are around $15 to $17 as they are now. My rig runs unattended, I dont have to "fiddle" with it at all usually. You would think that with all the Security-phobes out there on Chugulug there would be more folks interested in a Peer-to-Peer currency that isnt controlled by the big-bad government. :) Its the most secure currency in existence, and the most private. From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Can someone please explain? I get that: - BitCoin is a form of virtual currency that can be exchanged for goods and services from those who choose to accept it - There is some sort of process happening on the computers that earns you bitcoins What I don't get is: - What the computers are doing - What are they processing? - Why would someone pay you for this? - Are they just artibratially sending math to your computer and whoever lets it run the longest gets paid? (I ask this because of the repeated references to "Difficulty increases" - I mean, if they are actually trying to accomplish something, how can that make that something harder or easier?) - How the BitCoin people determine who gets what - How much BitCoin you can "earn" by letting your computer run - Chad W Smith

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ Again, to keep my explanation from only adding to your confusion, here is the wiki link about blocks: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block Blocks just hold data and a reference to the previous block. So all transactions that happened during that block's time frame are held in the block. So instead of a central authority keeping track of the transactions, this block chain has the information inside it. Everyone can see every transaction by looking through the block history. Transactions are confirmed by other peers on the network. As the transaction gets more confirmation, it becomes more valid or trustworthy. At 120 confirmations, the transaction is considered completely confirmed. I should probably shut up and point you to other wiki articles, as I feel I may make it more confusing.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ So it's literally worthless. I mean, it is just random useless math solely for the purpose of generating value to this virtual economy. The math doesn't "do" anything. It just wastes electricity and burns up your hardware. You're not processing the human genome, nor a 3-D model of the universe, nor trying to calculate a cure for some dread disease - you're just finding interesting random numbers for the sake of finding interesting random numbers so that you can feel like your BitCoin is worth something. How completely arbitrary. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ On the subject of Bitcoins and their profitability. Here is a thread from just over a year ago. A guy offered 10,000 bitcoins (which were real easy to mine back then) for someone to buy two pizzas and have them delivered to his house. Someone did. Those 10,000 bitcoins are worth around $150,000 USD today. That's probably the most expensive pizza delivery in history.

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=137.0 I forgot to include the link.

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ Why does the dollar have worth to us? It's a piece of paper. It's not backed by gold today. It's completely arbitrary. People are literally printing it. Those interesting random numbers you speak of are worth $15 each currently, and they will continue to go up in price for a while.

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ No, you are not just randomly doing "math". Your hashing is in an effort to find a block to continue the block chain of the currency. The real value of the bitcoin is in its trading for goods and services. But, for miners like me, I am trading my bitcoins for mostly USD. I have used bitcoins to purchase items though. The point of hashing blocks is first to confirm the transactions of others across the network. The second point it to get a reward from the network for finding those blocks (currently 50 Bitcoins valued at about $15 USD each right now). To put it simply, and in reference to your email, it would be like doing "math" for Seti@home, but actually getting paid for it :) I perform work for the bitcoin network by hashing blocks. When I find a block, the network "rewards" me with 50 Bitcoins. My block is added to the block chain, and all the transactions of others that I collected while hashing said block is included in my found block, and added to the chain. My block becomes one of the 120 it takes to fully confirm a transaction. Call me greedy, but I used to have a substantial Seti@home farm doing work units for them. I was spending my electricity and hardware performing work for them voluntarily for free. Now, I have moved my resources to the bitcoin network, where I get to support a decentralized currency uncontrolled by any federal reserve, or governments. I also get to earn actual value from this. I can use my bitcoins to buy stuff, pay for services, and even trade them for the highly regulated US Dollar. To each their own. If you want to volunteer your electricity and burn up your hardware to process the human genome, or find a cure for a disease, then go for it. Its a valiant cause. But for me, I prefer to use my resources on the bitcoin network to, as you say, "feel like my bitcoin is worth something", except the fact that my Bitcoins are indeed worth a high amount. My family and I get to enjoy the extra $750 to $900 USD per month that my arbitrary math has earned me :) That is substantial.

=============================================================== From: Cynicalgeek ------------------------------------------------------ Are you aware of the hack? http://www.dailytech.com/Inside+the+MegaHack+of+Bitcoin+the+Full+Story/article21942.htm

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ Everyone in the community is aware of the "hack". It was not even a hack. Mt.Gox (one of 7 major exchanges) had an auditor with read access to their database. Someone used that data to steal from someone on the Mt.Gox site. This wasn't a hack on bitcoin. It was like a digital bank robbery.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ An effort to find a block to continue a chain of blocks... Still sounds li= ke arbritrary math to me.=20 Look if some offered me a few hundred bucks a month to say the word "green" 5= 0 times a day, I'd do it. I am nit questioning your motives in cashing in. J= ust like I don't blame the Army Core of Engineers workers for digging and re= filling ditches. That's what they were paid to do and so they did it. I just= don't grasp why anyone would give you hundreds of dollars per month to in e= ssence create this virtual currency that is worth hundreds of dollars per mo= nth.=20 - Chad W Smith o find a block to continue the block chain of the currency. The real value o= f the bitcoin is in its trading for goods and services. But, for miners lik= e me, I am trading my bitcoins for mostly USD. I have used bitcoins to purc= hase items though. across the network. The second point it to get a reward from the network f= or finding those blocks (currently 50 Bitcoins valued at about $15 USD each r= ight now). math" for Seti@home, but actually getting paid for it :) I perform work for= the bitcoin network by hashing blocks. When I find a block, the network "re= wards" me with 50 Bitcoins. My block is added to the block chain, and all th= e transactions of others that I collected while hashing said block is includ= ed in my found block, and added to the chain. My block becomes one of the 12= 0 it takes to fully confirm a transaction. units for them. I was spending my electricity and hardware performing work f= or them voluntarily for free. Now, I have moved my resources to the bitcoin n= etwork, where I get to support a decentralized currency uncontrolled by any f= ederal reserve, or governments. I also get to earn actual value from this. I= can use my bitcoins to buy stuff, pay for services, and even trade them for= the highly regulated US Dollar. our hardware to process the human genome, or find a cure for a disease, then= go for it. Its a valiant cause. But for me, I prefer to use my resources on= the bitcoin network to, as you say, "feel like my bitcoin is worth somethin= g", except the fact that my Bitcoins are indeed worth a high amount. My fami= ly and I get to enjoy the extra $750 to $900 USD per month that my arbitrary= math has earned me :) g value to this virtual economy. The math doesn't "do" anything. It just w= astes electricity and burns up your hardware. or trying to calculate a cure for some dread disease - you're just finding i= nteresting random numbers for the sake of finding interesting random numbers= so that you can feel like your BitCoin is worth something. ry 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya ncy. There is no central group, government, or person that controls bitcoin= . Once you run the Bitcoin client, you are apart of the Bitcoin network, and= as such, are a part in enforcing the algorithms, and "rules" that control B= itcoin. It is virtually impossible for any one person, or entity to obtain c= ontrol over bitcoin and manage the price artificially as we do with the U.S.= Dollar. To do that, one would have to own and then maintain 51% of the has= hing power across the entire network. ce the block has been found by you, your client presents it to the network f= or confirmation. Every single person on the network will confirm that block,= and if your has was successful, you will be rewarded with a 50 Bitcoins. An= other benefit of finding these blocks is that you "attach" transactions to i= t when its submitted to the network. These transactions could be where Joe s= ent Sally 5 Bitcoins to pay for a sweater. So, block discovery is the heart= of bitcoin. It is also called "mining" because it is very akin to mining fo= r gold.=20 h your hashing power. Right now, hashing blocks on your GPU is the fastest w= ay to produce a block. There are alot of folks looking at ASIC and FPGA as a= better way to hash, but its still very experimental. As an example of the r= eturns you can get, I can earn about $25 to $30 per day with my rig. This is= assuming the price of bitcoins are around $15 to $17 as they are now. My ri= g runs unattended, I dont have to "fiddle" with it at all usually. ere would be more folks interested in a Peer-to-Peer currency that isnt cont= rolled by the big-bad government. :) Its the most secure currency in existe= nce, and the most private. n someone please explain? I get that: - BitCoin is a form of virtual currenc= y that can be exchanged for goods and services from those who choose to acce= pt it - There is some sort of process happening on the computers that earns y= ou bitcoins What I don't get is: - What the computers are doing - What are t= hey processing? - Why would someone pay you for this? - Are they just artibr= atially sending math to your computer and whoever lets it run the longest ge= ts paid? (I ask this because of the repeated references to "Difficulty incre= ases" - I mean, if they are actually trying to accomplish something, how can= that make that something harder or easier?) - How the BitCoin people determ= ine who gets what - How much BitCoin you can "earn" by letting your compu= ter run - Chad W Smith=20

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Yes, but you shouldn't spread FUD without investigating. Let me dispell this for you. This WAS NOT AN ATTACK on the Bitcoin network. Someone merely obtained the database from a SINGLE exchange. There are many many other Bitcoin exchanges out there. Again, the network itself was unharmed, and only the folks that used MtGox as their exchange was affected. You need to understand what an exchange is first. This is where someone sells their bitcoins for various other currencies. There are many of them out there, and I use several different ones in order to secure the highest exchange rate for my coins. The db leak at MtGox had ZERO effect on the price of Bitcoins at other exchanges. It also had ZERO effect on the value of the currency itself.

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ It's the same concept we use to put value on USD. It's printed. It's physically not work much at all. Yet a $100 bill will still buy a few groceries. The value comes from it's use. If someone is willing to give me a month's worth of website hosting for 2 BTC, then 2 BTC is at least momentarily worth a month of website hosting.

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Chad, I think you are completely missing the picture here. I am not getting paid to hash. I earn Bitcoins for doing work for the network (in essence). Now, I can use these bitcoins in their natural state and buy stuff with them. THe network awards me for finding a block. The same way the "earth" rewards you for digging for gold. That gold has a natural value in its present state. I can take my bitcoins and sell them to people who want them, much the same way I can take a nugget of gold and sell it to someone who wants to make jewlery with it. I like to sell my bitcoins on the exchanges (think NASDAQ) for US Dollars so I can take my family to the movies, buy use steaks for the grill, etc. No one is paying me to create this virtual currency. My mining rig is getting rewarded with Bitcoins for discovering blocks and processing and confirming transactions. ITs up to me to do as I wish with these bitcoins. I can hoard them like some gold miners do, or can sell them for USD, GBP, Euros, or I can even trade them for Pizza.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I think I may have got it now. So the random interesting numbers you are min= ing for **are** the bit coins. As in you have to have a unique number to ass= ociate with the life of the transactions of that coin. Kinda like the serial= number on US currency.=20 Am I getting close? - Chad W Smith to hash. I earn Bitcoins for doing work for the network (in essence). Now= , I can use these bitcoins in their natural state and buy stuff with them. T= He network awards me for finding a block. The same way the "earth" rewards y= ou for digging for gold. That gold has a natural value in its present state= . I can take my bitcoins and sell them to people who want them, much the sam= e way I can take a nugget of gold and sell it to someone who wants to make j= ewlery with it. I like to sell my bitcoins on the exchanges (think NASDAQ) f= or US Dollars so I can take my family to the movies, buy use steaks for the g= rill, etc. =20 ing rewarded with Bitcoins for discovering blocks and processing and confirm= ing transactions. ITs up to me to do as I wish with these bitcoins. I can h= oard them like some gold miners do, or can sell them for USD, GBP, Euros, or= I can even trade them for Pizza. ike arbritrary math to me.=20 " 50 times a day, I'd do it. I am nit questioning your motives in cashing in= . Just like I don't blame the Army Core of Engineers workers for digging and= refilling ditches. That's what they were paid to do and so they did it. I j= ust don't grasp why anyone would give you hundreds of dollars per month to i= n essence create this virtual currency that is worth hundreds of dollars per= month.=20 to find a block to continue the block chain of the currency. The real value= of the bitcoin is in its trading for goods and services. But, for miners l= ike me, I am trading my bitcoins for mostly USD. I have used bitcoins to pu= rchase items though. s across the network. The second point it to get a reward from the network f= or finding those blocks (currently 50 Bitcoins valued at about $15 USD each r= ight now). math" for Seti@home, but actually getting paid for it :) I perform work for= the bitcoin network by hashing blocks. When I find a block, the network "re= wards" me with 50 Bitcoins. My block is added to the block chain, and all th= e transactions of others that I collected while hashing said block is includ= ed in my found block, and added to the chain. My block becomes one of the 12= 0 it takes to fully confirm a transaction. k units for them. I was spending my electricity and hardware performing work= for them voluntarily for free. Now, I have moved my resources to the bitcoi= n network, where I get to support a decentralized currency uncontrolled by a= ny federal reserve, or governments. I also get to earn actual value from thi= s. I can use my bitcoins to buy stuff, pay for services, and even trade them= for the highly regulated US Dollar. your hardware to process the human genome, or find a cure for a disease, th= en go for it. Its a valiant cause. But for me, I prefer to use my resources o= n the bitcoin network to, as you say, "feel like my bitcoin is worth somethi= ng", except the fact that my Bitcoins are indeed worth a high amount. My fam= ily and I get to enjoy the extra $750 to $900 USD per month that my arbitrar= y math has earned me :) ng value to this virtual economy. The math doesn't "do" anything. It just w= astes electricity and burns up your hardware. or trying to calculate a cure for some dread disease - you're just finding i= nteresting random numbers for the sake of finding interesting random numbers= so that you can feel like your BitCoin is worth something. ary 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya ency. There is no central group, government, or person that controls bitcoi= n. Once you run the Bitcoin client, you are apart of the Bitcoin network, an= d as such, are a part in enforcing the algorithms, and "rules" that control B= itcoin. It is virtually impossible for any one person, or entity to obtain c= ontrol over bitcoin and manage the price artificially as we do with the U.S.= Dollar. To do that, one would have to own and then maintain 51% of the has= hing power across the entire network. nce the block has been found by you, your client presents it to the network f= or confirmation. Every single person on the network will confirm that block,= and if your has was successful, you will be rewarded with a 50 Bitcoins. An= other benefit of finding these blocks is that you "attach" transactions to i= t when its submitted to the network. These transactions could be where Joe s= ent Sally 5 Bitcoins to pay for a sweater. So, block discovery is the heart= of bitcoin. It is also called "mining" because it is very akin to mining fo= r gold.=20 th your hashing power. Right now, hashing blocks on your GPU is the fastest= way to produce a block. There are alot of folks looking at ASIC and FPGA a= s a better way to hash, but its still very experimental. As an example of t= he returns you can get, I can earn about $25 to $30 per day with my rig. Thi= s is assuming the price of bitcoins are around $15 to $17 as they are now. M= y rig runs unattended, I dont have to "fiddle" with it at all usually. here would be more folks interested in a Peer-to-Peer currency that isnt con= trolled by the big-bad government. :) Its the most secure currency in exist= ence, and the most private. an someone please explain? I get that: - BitCoin is a form of virtual curren= cy that can be exchanged for goods and services from those who choose to acc= ept it - There is some sort of process happening on the computers that earns= you bitcoins What I don't get is: - What the computers are doing - What are= they processing? - Why would someone pay you for this? - Are they just arti= bratially sending math to your computer and whoever lets it run the longest g= ets paid? (I ask this because of the repeated references to "Difficulty incr= eases" - I mean, if they are actually trying to accomplish something, how ca= n that make that something harder or easier?) - How the BitCoin people deter= mine who gets what - How much BitCoin you can "earn" by letting your compute= r run - Chad W Smith=20

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Fairly close :) The work I perform is to find the block. The block has a unique identifier on it, not the coins themselves. Once I find a block, my bitcoin client adds in any transaction data that has come across the network (such as Harry sending Sally 10 coins) and then submits this block to the network for confirmation. Once the block is confirmed as valid, the network will reward me with 50 Bitcoin. WHen I send someone coins, i submit that payment to the network. Lets say I am going to pay you 2 coins for a pizza. I send my 2 coins to your wallet address (which is unique to you, but no personal data is included). When I send the payment, it goes across the entire bitcoin network as a transaction. Every miner out there will accept the data, and then add it to the block they are working on. Once enough blocks with our transaction data have been found and confirmed, the 2 coins will be "deducted" from my wallet, and "credited" to your wallet. This transaction is secure in the sense that it is covered by the entire network, and has been confirmed by many many peer to peer clients. The wallet addresses are unique to each person. There is no personal data included in the wallet, and no indentifying stuff like IP's are anything. All the network sees is this: wallet ABC is sending 2 Bitcoins to ZYX. The network has no idea that ABC is Lynn Dixon and ZYX is Chad Smith. Its the same type of anonimity that the physical dollar has. Sure ther is a serial number, but Uncle Sam has no idea that the 2 dollars I handed you came from me. But, I know that I paid you, and you know that I paid you. Does that make sense?

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Please tell me which current pizza parlors accept bitcoins. Or anybody who does for that matter.

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ The problem is, this is almost like the internet bubble again: Bitcoins still have negligible trade value in real life, I cannot go to any current retailer I can walk to and use said bitcoins. Its like that episode of South Park when they make the Youtube Video to make 'theoretical dollars' to help Canada. Its a THEORETICAL worth. When bitcoin becomes a value that I can use to buy merchandise at most retailers, including ones online, then it'll actually be worth the amount it is valued at. And while someone mentioned the US dollar as being similar, yes it is in that way. BUT, the US Government backs the dollar as a trade value, and it is accepted by everyone within the US, and can also be converted into foreign currency. Everybody has to accept my US dollars, nobody has to accept bitcoins.

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Are you serious, or is this a Troll attempt... heheh. Heres a fairly large list of companies that accept Bitcoins. It lists exchanges as well as companies that sell products and services with Bitcoins: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade I also accept Bitcoins as payment from my webhosting customers. I merely used pizza as an example :P Here is one for all the mac-lovers on this lug: http://www.macexperts.com.au/ So yeah, there is a metric crap ton of folks that accept Bitcoins.

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Practically all the companies listed (except for the AMEX Visa to Bitcoin conversion) are small third party companies. When it gets tradable at Best Buy or Home Depot, then I'll see it as a reputable trade value.

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ People are buying bitcoins right now for around $16 each. It's isn't theoretical value if I can sell them for $16 each. You can argue your point all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that I can mine a couple bitcoins every day and sell them for $16 each. Sorry, just because you don't want or value a bitcoin, doesn't mean that others are the same. There are plenty of people buying them like crazy right now. If you aren't mining them, it's your choice, but people are becoming pretty rich on the speculation. I'm not sure how well off you are monetarily, but for me, every little bit helps, no matter what my understanding of the concept may be.

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Stephen, You can walk up to me and pay for webhosting with bitcoins....in person. Not everybody has to accept US Dollars, sorry to break that. I still have yet to figure out why people say Bitcoins have a negligible trade value. I have traded my coins for several hundreds of USD. I have also used my Bitcoins to purchase goods from online retailers. Hell, I Can even purchase Euros with my BTC if I wanted to. Saying that bitcoins have no value because they are not accepted widely in your country is like saying Pesos have no value. Sure, they may not have value in the US, but you shouldnt have such a short sight that you ignore their value because you cant buy a big mac in the US with Pesos. Try taking your US Dollars to Mexico and buying goods with them. They have almost no value in some areas of Mexico (trust me, I have visted Mexico and tried to buy good with USD).

=============================================================== From: Stephen Kraus ------------------------------------------------------ Fair enough, it has value because people PUT value in it. I hope this works out, I really do. BUT, people put value in company after company during the Internet Bubble, companies were worth MILLIONS and then they just collapsed. Its not so much the value place on it, but the return it will provide.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Ok - so how do I get started? I figure it's worth some electricity for me to potentially earn a thousand bucks a month. I found a Mac App I can run - but don't I need one of them thar Virtual Wallets y'uns were carrying on about? (Don't ask why I just typed in Old Western'ese, just go with it.) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ The same goes for the USD. It only has speculated value. IT IS NOT backed by gold anymore. The USD is backed by the same speculation that the Bitcoin is backed with. Its just that its the defacto currency for our country. World wide, the value of the USD is shrinking. For example, 1 bitcoin is worth ALOT more US Dollars right now, meaning the demand for Bitcoins worldwide is actually higher per capita than the USD is.

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Chad, If you downloaded and installed the official Bitcoin client at www.bitcoin.org you are automatically assigned a wallet address. You can also use online "banks" such as www.mybitcoin.com and they will give you a wallet address. But, the most secure wallet is the one you have on your own machine, so I would use the wallet that your bitcoin client gives you. You can also start mining right now with the bitcoin client. Simply select "generate coins" and you are mining on your CPU. Granted CPU mining isnt effective as GPU mining. So, I would start looking for a GPU miner for your mac. This will let you use your graphics processor to mine for blocks.' I am not sure whether to take your reply as sarcasm or not to be honest :)

=============================================================== From: Aaron Welch ------------------------------------------------------ At this point this discussion is lost on Chad. Please allow him to return t= o the lands of Jobs and drink the Kool-Aid. -AW ike arbritrary math to me.=20 " 50 times a day, I'd do it. I am nit questioning your motives in cashing in= . Just like I don't blame the Army Core of Engineers workers for digging and= refilling ditches. That's what they were paid to do and so they did it. I j= ust don't grasp why anyone would give you hundreds of dollars per month to i= n essence create this virtual currency that is worth hundreds of dollars per= month.=20 to find a block to continue the block chain of the currency. The real value= of the bitcoin is in its trading for goods and services. But, for miners l= ike me, I am trading my bitcoins for mostly USD. I have used bitcoins to pu= rchase items though. s across the network. The second point it to get a reward from the network f= or finding those blocks (currently 50 Bitcoins valued at about $15 USD each r= ight now). math" for Seti@home, but actually getting paid for it :) I perform work for= the bitcoin network by hashing blocks. When I find a block, the network "re= wards" me with 50 Bitcoins. My block is added to the block chain, and all th= e transactions of others that I collected while hashing said block is includ= ed in my found block, and added to the chain. My block becomes one of the 12= 0 it takes to fully confirm a transaction. k units for them. I was spending my electricity and hardware performing work= for them voluntarily for free. Now, I have moved my resources to the bitcoi= n network, where I get to support a decentralized currency uncontrolled by a= ny federal reserve, or governments. I also get to earn actual value from thi= s. I can use my bitcoins to buy stuff, pay for services, and even trade them= for the highly regulated US Dollar. your hardware to process the human genome, or find a cure for a disease, th= en go for it. Its a valiant cause. But for me, I prefer to use my resources o= n the bitcoin network to, as you say, "feel like my bitcoin is worth somethi= ng", except the fact that my Bitcoins are indeed worth a high amount. My fam= ily and I get to enjoy the extra $750 to $900 USD per month that my arbitrar= y math has earned me :) ng value to this virtual economy. The math doesn't "do" anything. It just w= astes electricity and burns up your hardware. or trying to calculate a cure for some dread disease - you're just finding i= nteresting random numbers for the sake of finding interesting random numbers= so that you can feel like your BitCoin is worth something. ary 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya ency. There is no central group, government, or person that controls bitcoi= n. Once you run the Bitcoin client, you are apart of the Bitcoin network, an= d as such, are a part in enforcing the algorithms, and "rules" that control B= itcoin. It is virtually impossible for any one person, or entity to obtain c= ontrol over bitcoin and manage the price artificially as we do with the U.S.= Dollar. To do that, one would have to own and then maintain 51% of the has= hing power across the entire network. nce the block has been found by you, your client presents it to the network f= or confirmation. Every single person on the network will confirm that block,= and if your has was successful, you will be rewarded with a 50 Bitcoins. An= other benefit of finding these blocks is that you "attach" transactions to i= t when its submitted to the network. These transactions could be where Joe s= ent Sally 5 Bitcoins to pay for a sweater. So, block discovery is the heart= of bitcoin. It is also called "mining" because it is very akin to mining fo= r gold.=20 th your hashing power. Right now, hashing blocks on your GPU is the fastest= way to produce a block. There are alot of folks looking at ASIC and FPGA a= s a better way to hash, but its still very experimental. As an example of t= he returns you can get, I can earn about $25 to $30 per day with my rig. Thi= s is assuming the price of bitcoins are around $15 to $17 as they are now. M= y rig runs unattended, I dont have to "fiddle" with it at all usually. here would be more folks interested in a Peer-to-Peer currency that isnt con= trolled by the big-bad government. :) Its the most secure currency in exist= ence, and the most private. an someone please explain? I get that: - BitCoin is a form of virtual curren= cy that can be exchanged for goods and services from those who choose to acc= ept it - There is some sort of process happening on the computers that earns= you bitcoins What I don't get is: - What the computers are doing - What are= they processing? - Why would someone pay you for this? - Are they just arti= bratially sending math to your computer and whoever lets it run the longest g= ets paid? (I ask this because of the repeated references to "Difficulty incr= eases" - I mean, if they are actually trying to accomplish something, how ca= n that make that something harder or easier?) - How the BitCoin people deter= mine who gets what - How much BitCoin you can "earn" by letting your compute= r run - Chad W Smith=20

=============================================================== From: William Wade ------------------------------------------------------ Gold rush? I'm in. Easy startup how to?

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I don't see any "Generate Coins" button. But I've got the GPU client. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Aaron Welch ------------------------------------------------------ Why are you using that as a metric? I cannot pay in Yen or Euros at Bestbuy= , but they are both valid currencies none the less. I think a good video ne= eds to be done on all this. It took me literally 8 hours of research to be a= ble to explain this to the wife to justify spending the $1500 on a few rigs.= -AW onversion) are small third party companies. utable trade value. anges as well as companies that sell products and services with Bitcoins: sed pizza as an example :P =20 .au/ ote: does for that matter. nique identifier on it, not the coins themselves. Once I find a block, my bi= tcoin client adds in any transaction data that has come across the network (= such as Harry sending Sally 10 coins) and then submits this block to the net= work for confirmation. Once the block is confirmed as valid, the network wi= ll reward me with 50 Bitcoin. =20 I am going to pay you 2 coins for a pizza. I send my 2 coins to your wallet= address (which is unique to you, but no personal data is included). When I= send the payment, it goes across the entire bitcoin network as a transactio= n. Every miner out there will accept the data, and then add it to the block t= hey are working on. Once enough blocks with our transaction data have been f= ound and confirmed, the 2 coins will be "deducted" from my wallet, and "cred= ited" to your wallet. This transaction is secure in the sense that it is co= vered by the entire network, and has been confirmed by many many peer to pee= r clients.=20 ncluded in the wallet, and no indentifying stuff like IP's are anything. Al= l the network sees is this: wallet ABC is sending 2 Bitcoins to ZYX. The n= etwork has no idea that ABC is Lynn Dixon and ZYX is Chad Smith. serial number, but Uncle Sam has no idea that the 2 dollars I handed you ca= me from me. But, I know that I paid you, and you know that I paid you. ining for **are** the bit coins. As in you have to have a unique number to a= ssociate with the life of the transactions of that coin. Kinda like the seri= al number on US currency.=20 d to hash. I earn Bitcoins for doing work for the network (in essence). No= w, I can use these bitcoins in their natural state and buy stuff with them. T= He network awards me for finding a block. The same way the "earth" rewards y= ou for digging for gold. That gold has a natural value in its present state= . I can take my bitcoins and sell them to people who want them, much the sam= e way I can take a nugget of gold and sell it to someone who wants to make j= ewlery with it. I like to sell my bitcoins on the exchanges (think NASDAQ) f= or US Dollars so I can take my family to the movies, buy use steaks for the g= rill, etc. =20 ting rewarded with Bitcoins for discovering blocks and processing and confir= ming transactions. ITs up to me to do as I wish with these bitcoins. I can h= oard them like some gold miners do, or can sell them for USD, GBP, Euros, or= I can even trade them for Pizza. like arbritrary math to me.=20 n" 50 times a day, I'd do it. I am nit questioning your motives in cashing i= n. Just like I don't blame the Army Core of Engineers workers for digging an= d refilling ditches. That's what they were paid to do and so they did it. I j= ust don't grasp why anyone would give you hundreds of dollars per month to i= n essence create this virtual currency that is worth hundreds of dollars per= month.=20 t to find a block to continue the block chain of the currency. The real valu= e of the bitcoin is in its trading for goods and services. But, for miners l= ike me, I am trading my bitcoins for mostly USD. I have used bitcoins to pu= rchase items though. rs across the network. The second point it to get a reward from the network= for finding those blocks (currently 50 Bitcoins valued at about $15 USD eac= h right now). "math" for Seti@home, but actually getting paid for it :) I perform work f= or the bitcoin network by hashing blocks. When I find a block, the network "= rewards" me with 50 Bitcoins. My block is added to the block chain, and all t= he transactions of others that I collected while hashing said block is inclu= ded in my found block, and added to the chain. My block becomes one of the 1= 20 it takes to fully confirm a transaction. rk units for them. I was spending my electricity and hardware performing wor= k for them voluntarily for free. Now, I have moved my resources to the bitco= in network, where I get to support a decentralized currency uncontrolled by a= ny federal reserve, or governments. I also get to earn actual value from thi= s. I can use my bitcoins to buy stuff, pay for services, and even trade them= for the highly regulated US Dollar. p your hardware to process the human genome, or find a cure for a disease, t= hen go for it. Its a valiant cause. But for me, I prefer to use my resources= on the bitcoin network to, as you say, "feel like my bitcoin is worth somet= hing", except the fact that my Bitcoins are indeed worth a high amount. My f= amily and I get to enjoy the extra $750 to $900 USD per month that my arbitr= ary math has earned me :) ing value to this virtual economy. The math doesn't "do" anything. It just= wastes electricity and burns up your hardware. nor trying to calculate a cure for some dread disease - you're just finding= interesting random numbers for the sake of finding interesting random numbe= rs so that you can feel like your BitCoin is worth something. uary 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya rency. There is no central group, government, or person that controls bitco= in. Once you run the Bitcoin client, you are apart of the Bitcoin network, a= nd as such, are a part in enforcing the algorithms, and "rules" that control= Bitcoin. It is virtually impossible for any one person, or entity to obtai= n control over bitcoin and manage the price artificially as we do with the U= .S. Dollar. To do that, one would have to own and then maintain 51% of the h= ashing power across the entire network. nce the block has been found by you, your client presents it to the network f= or confirmation. Every single person on the network will confirm that block,= and if your has was successful, you will be rewarded with a 50 Bitcoins. An= other benefit of finding these blocks is that you "attach" transactions to i= t when its submitted to the network. These transactions could be where Joe s= ent Sally 5 Bitcoins to pay for a sweater. So, block discovery is the heart= of bitcoin. It is also called "mining" because it is very akin to mining fo= r gold.=20 ith your hashing power. Right now, hashing blocks on your GPU is the fastes= t way to produce a block. There are alot of folks looking at ASIC and FPGA a= s a better way to hash, but its still very experimental. As an example of t= he returns you can get, I can earn about $25 to $30 per day with my rig. Thi= s is assuming the price of bitcoins are around $15 to $17 as they are now. M= y rig runs unattended, I dont have to "fiddle" with it at all usually. here would be more folks interested in a Peer-to-Peer currency that isnt con= trolled by the big-bad government. :) Its the most secure currency in exist= ence, and the most private. an someone please explain? I get that: - BitCoin is a form of virtual curren= cy that can be exchanged for goods and services from those who choose to acc= ept it - There is some sort of process happening on the computers that earns= you bitcoins What I don't get is: - What the computers are doing - What are= they processing? - Why would someone pay you for this? - Are they just arti= bratially sending math to your computer and whoever lets it run the longest g= ets paid? (I ask this because of the repeated references to "Difficulty incr= eases" - I mean, if they are actually trying to accomplish something, how ca= n that make that something harder or easier?) - How the BitCoin people= determine who gets what - How much BitCoin you can "earn" by letting your c= omputer run - Chad W Smith=20

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Well, there is a metric crap ton of info on the web about mining. Start here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?board=14.0 I suggest do a lot of reading, and sorting, before you decide to start mining. For me, it has been lucrative. Also check out the wiki... https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Mining here are some good sites to help you track the market: www.bitcoinwatch.com www.bitcoincharts.com If you want to look at raw block data, see this: http://blockexplorer.com/ I also suggest using Tradehill as an exchange: http://www.tradehill.com/?r=TH-R11626 Oh yeah, forgot to mention, Bitcoin is Open Source :)

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Ok, so I am now mining for interesting random numbers in exchange for virtual currency which may or may not be tradable for actual goods and/or services. I am chad78

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I'm doing about 1400 khash per second. Is that good? - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Thats decent for CPU. for Comparison that is about 1.4 Mega hash /sec. My GPU rig is producing 1500 Mega hash /sec :)

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ 1000 times that would be decent

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ LOL. I meant Decent for a CPU miner :P

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ So, by that logic, I'll earn about 75=A2 to 90=A2 a month at this rate. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - Februar= y 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya y e: ood in y a across this as ts your uded). s a d it to ion data y n the ed by tcoins had er anded paid u ue number like the ng ssence). with earth" its ant them, e who changes , buy use is g and tcoins. , GBP, d es in kers for d so they ollars per dreds of . The real t, for sed f om the about $15 d a block, e block ashing My block are y alized so get to ay for for a to use my coin is h a high r month anything. you're nteresting mething. - r person apart of the thms, and y one price ld have to network. s it to the l confirm with a 50 ttach" nsactions So, block cause it is r GPU is the at ASIC and As an per day with $17 as they at all currency secure ne please t can be it - There u bitcoins hey t run the s to accomplish How the n "earn" by

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Its hard to say. Usually when people get into mining, they go full out like Randy and I have. We built dedicated mining rigs whose sole purpose is to mine blocks. I am mining on the BTCGuild.com pool as well as deepbit.net. I am averageing about 1.5 BTC per day on these pools at the current difficulty. My te: good e dy d a across this as ns to s oin a, and ith our nsaction d has l e itcoins Chad rs I that I ou que number like the ork (in d buy me way the value in who want someone he the ssing and itcoins. D, GBP, l rd ves in rkers for nd so they dollars per ndreds of n y. The real ut, for used of rom the about $15 e I nd a block, he block hashing My block ware my ralized lso get to pay for for a r to use my tcoin is th a high er month anything. - you're interesting omething. h or person apart of the ithms, and ny one price uld have to e network. a ts it to the ll confirm d with a 50 attach" ansactions So, block ecause it is s ur GPU is the g at ASIC and As an per day with o $17 as they t at all currency t secure one please at can be t it - There ou bitcoins they st run the es to accomplish - How the an "earn" by

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ ATI video cards are where it's at when it comes to bitcoin mining. The more stream processors the better. ke o . ote: good he a s k nd a e across s this d as ins to is coin ta, and with our e ansaction nd has al re Bitcoins Chad ars I w that I a unique n. Kinda work (in nd buy ame way the l value in who want o someone the o the g essing and bitcoins. SD, GBP, ll r motives in orkers for and so they dollars per undreds of an cy. The real But, for used rd from the t about $15 ke find a ded to the while he chain. My tion. dware my tralized also get to pay for . d e for a er to use my itcoin is rth a high per month f " anything. - you're interesting something. sh or person e apart of the rithms, and any one e price ould have to re network. a nts it to the ill confirm ed with a 50 "attach" ransactions So, block because it is es our GPU is the ng at ASIC and As an 0 per day with to $17 as they it at all r currency st secure eone please hat can be pt it - There you bitcoins they ust t run the ces to o accomplish - How the can "earn" by

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Ok - so I have a propitiation for you, or who ever wants to do this. If someone will sell me a ready made mining rig, hardware and software installed, I'll pay for shipping to Saint Louis, (where I am) in US currency. And after I get it and have it running, I'll pay you for the cos= t of the hardware + an additional 50% in BitCoin, as I am able. (so the faster the rig is, the sooner you get your coin.) Or we could do it this way - for the first 6 months, I'll give you half of what I earn, and I will leave it running full time. Again, the better the rig, the more you earn. Who is in? - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - Februar= y 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya ke o . ote: good he a s k nd a e across s this d as ins to is coin ta, and with our e ansaction nd has al re Bitcoins Chad ars I w that I a unique n. Kinda work (in nd buy ame way the l value in who want o someone the o the g essing and bitcoins. SD, GBP, ll r motives in orkers for and so they dollars per undreds of an cy. The real But, for used rd from the t about $15 ke find a ded to the while he chain. My tion. dware my tralized also get to pay for . d e for a er to use my itcoin is rth a high per month f " anything. - you're interesting something. sh or person e apart of the rithms, and any one e price ould have to re network. a nts it to the ill confirm ed with a 50 "attach" ransactions So, block because it is es our GPU is the ng at ASIC and As an 0 per day with to $17 as they it at all r currency st secure eone please hat can be pt it - There you bitcoins they ust t run the ces to o accomplish - How the can "earn" by

=============================================================== From: Lynn Dixon ------------------------------------------------------ Also, for those folks that want to mine without having to go through the learning of mining, you can play with web based miners. Here is one: http://www.bitcoinplus.com/ You won't earn as much since the site owners will take a portion for the service, but hey, you dont have to learn mining. I guess its good for the mac folks that like to be spoonfed :) re e is e rote: a good the a ts ck ind a me across ts this ed as oins to is tcoin ata, and with our be ransaction and has ike IP's ng 2 and ZYX is lars I ow that I a unique in. Kinda twork (in and buy same way the al value in e who want to someone the to the ig cessing and bitcoins. USD, GBP, ur motives in workers for and so they f dollars per hundreds of rrency. The ces. But, have used s ard from the at about $15 . When I find added to the d while the chain. My ction. rdware d my ntralized also get to , pay for r. nd re for a fer to use my bitcoin is orth a high per month of o" anything. e - you're g interesting something. , or person re apart of the orithms, and any one he price would have to ire network. d esents it to ork will be rewarded s that you . These for a sweater. d "mining" cks on your GPU ks looking at erimental. As o $30 per day d $15 to $17 as with it at all n er currency ost secure meone please that can be ept it - There you bitcoins e they just it run the nces to to accomplish ) - How the can "earn" by

=============================================================== From: Aaron Welch ------------------------------------------------------ So I am trying to judge my potential output if I am running 7x Radeon HD6770= s. =46rom the HW comparison chart it shows that these will crank out 1400-1= 500 Mhash/s. Am I way off in that assessment? I spent hours looking at tha= t chart and scouring site for the best cost/performance configuration. So t= he wife and I will put 2 of those in each of our machines and then 3 in a de= dicated rig. I will upgrade those to HD5870s once we actually start making a= ny money. Is this a reasonable plan? -AW e Randy and I have. We built dedicated mining rigs whose sole p