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OpenSource alternatives

From: John Aldrich 
------------------------------------------------------
Anyone got a good, *complete* list of open source alternatives for Adobe 
CS3? Windows OR Linux. :D Things like Illustrator or InDesign. Keep in 
mind, I'm thinking the Desktop Publishing aspect of Creative Suite. Gimp 
apparently doesn't do CMYK coloring, only RGB.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Sure! None. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ For occaisional use or hard core geekery: Inkscape, Gimp and such work. If you are trying to convert a professional with experience with those tools, you are trying to save money in the wrong place. Getting a pantone color off for a production run of a product is -very- different from getting a color off on a website.

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ Seconded on inkscape. Have you looked into Scribus for desktop publishing?

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Seriously, GIMP is as close as you can get to Photoshop - and if that's not good enough, then you're not going to get what you are looking for. There really is a reason people pay a couple thousand dollars every couple of years to get the latest versions of Adobe's stuff. There's nothing better for less. Inkscape is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as Illustrator Scribus is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as InDesign GIMP is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as Photoshop KompoZer is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as Dreamweaver Audacity is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as Soundbooth etc. - You're not going to replace $2599 worth of software for free and have it do everything as well. I've looked. (Uses a bought and paid for copy of CS5.) So, like a said, here is a complete list of one-to-one open source replacements for Adobe Creative Suite 5.5 Master Collection. Ready? Hope that helps! - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Yeah.. right now, management is unhappy because picture colors don't match sample colors... I've pointed out that picture color is going to vary depending on which monitor you're looking at the picture on and which printer you print it off on and... :D OTOH, I'm not sure how much it matters on the sample pictures. I was just doing a little reading the other day and wondered how much out-of-date the info was. The info I came across on the web basically came to the same conclusion you guys did. Guess it wasn't out of date at all... :( Honestly, we *might* be able to make do with Gimp and the other OSS alternatives The only place I'd be somewhat concerned about that is when we do the sample books that go on the shelf.

=============================================================== From: William Wade ------------------------------------------------------ Gimp 2.8 which is not out yet (and may take another year at the current rate) but us switching the backend and will be much more able to handle print colors and lots of other stuff. 2.6 feels very old to me using dev. 2.7. Of all the setups I would say that Inkscape and Gimp are likely the two pieces that are closest to meeting the goals. InDesign has nothing even close. Scribus is a failed piece of software IMNSHO.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ You are now in the "don't save any money" camp. You will need color corrected monitors with a little feedback color sensor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:16:24 -0400 John Aldrich wrote: So I've got a friend who just spent about $7.5k on a (24" roll) printer, and decided to take the cheaper option and only spend $1.7k on a *low-end* color corrected monitor. I do think that with the right tools you could get reasonable color control out of open source tools, but if you're just screwing around with consumer grade monitors and inkjet printers, there's no way that you're ever going to get enough consistency out of your hardware that your software matters. Dan

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Yeah... I pointed that out to management. They're not interested in even spending a couple hundred on a special utility that analyzes and corrects your monitors (forget the name...)

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ LOL. Management are idiots. You just have to tell them if they aren't willing to spend any morney, they are going to keep getting the results their no money has been getting them. Remind them of the definition of insanity. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 19:05:32 -0400 John Aldrich wrote: Dude, you need a job where they actually give a damn. Doesn't matter what you do in software, then, you're not going to get good color matching with your printing. Best bet is to outsource your layup to someone who's willing to get it right. Other thing that might be useful: Show them their pictures on two monitors, and educate them on why color is important and how getting catalog information right might help them. My laptops and desktop monitors all have wildly different gamuts, and it's very interesting to look at the same image on all of them. Dan

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Oh, I did... right now, the cash-flow isn't there for non-essential projects..

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Funny, I always thought color matching carpet *was* essential. Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk30EB4ACgkQABP1RO+tr2SCZwCggfquqz003TiTSdwItKgHZ2i4 RGkAn02JaAjd5OuUcplqZ+KpR2w9CW/A =j5nu -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Right now the market for carpet is very soft, if you'll pardon the unintentional pun. Carpet is not selling well. High-end carpet is selling even worse. Guess which carpet we make? :( I've done the whole example of taking a carpet sample and holding it up to four different monitors. They just decided "well, even if we have a color- corrected sample image on the website, we can't control the monitors it's being viewed on...." so they didn't want to spend the $250 or so (if that) for ColorMunki. *shrug* It's not that they don't give a damn, it's cash flow right now is not very good.

=============================================================== From: Mike Harrison ------------------------------------------------------ Your product output is a color specific. Right? The company is doomed. The mexichindians pay the production line employees crap. The mexichindians bought a pantone certified monitor and product calibration system. and run tests on their design as well as their output. Constantly. They (on paper) meet ISO-9xxx QC standards because of it. They just kicked your employers company into the dirt. Your product is doomed to produce off-color/spec crapola that shows up at discount carpet outlets. The mexichindians product meets color and design spec for demanding clients that pay top dollar. All of the "saving $500 from using a FOSS alternative software package" ideas are worthless. That isn't your problem. A favorite line out of "Snow Crash" (book by Neil Stephenson) was when the hero realized the problem was he just wasn't spending enough money. He bought the latest technology and kicked ass. I can get more done with crap systems (no offense Aaron) than any one else I know. But there are times you buy whatever it takes to do the job right, plus spares. It's always paid off. The trick is knowing when to scrounge.. and when to call an expert and pay them for their advice and their best products from that advice. Pay em extra and make them jump through hoops. It's worth it. Things that affect quality of final output: Whatever it takes. And if your product/graphic designer becomes a Gimp-Inkscape-Master-Foo-Guru.. take that money saved and buy him some nice hardware and a decent chair. You can share this email with your management, free. It cost me many many thousands to learn this. Maybe a million. Michael Harrison, CBET, CCE Linux Evangelist, Systems Architect and Arrogant Geek Asshole

=============================================================== From: Eric Wolf ------------------------------------------------------ Wait... You mean even Mike is saying they need to spend more money? The company's seriously screwed. And the "market is soft" is BS. The carpet industry thrives on natural disaster, especially floods. We are seeing epic levels of flooding on the biggest river in the US. There are millions of square miles of carpet that need to be made. It's all paid for by insurance (and FEMA). If your boss is telling you there's no money, it's because the level of skim they were used to was a little too thin recently and they need this window of disaster to re-pad their pockets. If they want color accuracy, which is a requirement in carpet, then they are better off without any computers than to use consumer grade hardware. It's not the same stuff. -Eric

=============================================================== From: Billy ------------------------------------------------------ oh god. I hated doing this. I do some amateur photography, have done some prints and sent some as decorations for friends&family. And color correction is the bane of my existence. I have an older LCD monitor that has EXCELLENT color that I use for editing photos as my laptop screen just doesn't have the same clarity of colors. As Chad says, Gimp is close, cinepaint will work in a pinch, but Photoshop really is the best. It's not just photo manipulation. Almost anything can do that. Color curves, blending, normalization, "healing". Gimp will do all of that. What it's lacking however, is true 32-bit RGBA color space, and integrated color correction. Cinepaint does 32-bit RGBA color space, but it's interface is OLD compared to the new gimp, and it just seems clunkier to deal with. Color Correction. That's where it's at. That's were you really need it integrated with the OS display drivers, too. I have considered purchasing a Mac + CS5 just to do some more photo work, as the digital recovery and artistic work on the raw "negatives" has quickly become the part of the project I enjoy the least. I'm feeling very limited by the technology at my disposal. --b

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ Perhaps. But the same can be said of MSWord for its power users. The question is how much of the power user features do you use. For most folk Open source alternatives are enough. Though from what I here adobe strength is how it is a platform unto itself. If you had a gimp/scribus/wisiwig webthing that work together things might be different. Tho I know mac folk who know stuff who can use open source when they don't have access to there work machines. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 12:19:58 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] OpenSource alternatives Seriously, GIMP is as close as you can get to Photoshop - and if that's not good enough, then you're not going to get what you are looking for. There really is a reason people pay a couple thousand dollars every couple of years to get the latest versions of Adobe's stuff. There's nothing better for less. Inkscape is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as Illustrator Scribus is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as InDesign GIMP is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as Photoshop KompoZer is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as Dreamweaver Audacity is similar to, but not nearly as powerful as Soundbooth etc. - You're not going to replace $2599 worth of software for free and have it do everything as well. I've looked. (Uses a bought and paid for copy of CS5.) So, like a said, here is a complete list of one-to-one open source replacements for Adobe Creative Suite 5.5 Master Collection. Ready? Hope that helps! - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya Sure! None. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya Anyone got a good, *complete* list of open source alternatives for Adobe CS3? Windows OR Linux. :D Things like Illustrator or InDesign. Keep in mind, I'm thinking the Desktop Publishing aspect of Creative Suite. Gimp apparently doesn't do CMYK coloring, only RGB.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ John said that GIMP wasn't good enough. GIMP is a very powerful program. But if it isn't powerful enough, then he's out of luck. And if GIMP isn't good enough, and none of the other alternative comes anywhere near as close to the level of the commercial software as GIMP is, then none of the others are going to cut it. It really doesn't matter what "most folk" could use - I was answering a specific question. I do understand that for a lot of users, GIMP, et. al. works - but not in the situation I was responding to. And, yes, open source apps do work wonders in a pinch. I actually use Audacity several times a week for my various jobs - and even though it's buggy and I'm pretty sure the project is dead, I still use KompoZer and not my bought-and-paid-for DreamWeaver - just because KompoZer runs a lot faster. (Although I use BBEdit more than anything.) If I didn't like at least some open source apps, I wouldn't be here. That said - things like Aviary, Zoho, Google Docs, etc. - are vastly outpacing and will soon overtake (if they haven't already) traditional desktop based open source apps. Plus they are free, cross platform, don't require installation, accessible from any net-enabled computer, and come with cloud storage. If you haven't looked at Aviary lately, you own it to yourself to check it out. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say GIMP won't cut it, just that it (reportedly) doesn't do CMYK separations. :D

=============================================================== From: Dee Holtsclaw ------------------------------------------------------ Not natively, no. But have you tried this? http://www.blackfiveservices.co.uk/separate.shtml And that was the 2nd result: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gimp+cmyk

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ Gimp sucks. Full stop. Inkscape has the potential to be corporate-friendly with some extra effort put its way. But as a daily Adobe CS product user, it will never fill my need. --Cameron

=============================================================== From: Dee Holtsclaw ------------------------------------------------------ I fail to understand how this post relates to my reply to John's question. Flaming for the sake of flaming is getting old.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ John wanted to know if GIMP replaced Photoshop. In Cameron's experienced opinion, the answer is a resounding "no". It directly relates, as far as I can see, and pretty obviously at that. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ Not flaming, sharing personal insight. --Cameron

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ in an inflammatory manner. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kilgore" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 6:18:42 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] OpenSource alternatives Not flaming, sharing personal insight. --Cameron I fail to understand how this post relates to my reply to John's question. Flaming for the sake of flaming is getting old.

=============================================================== From: Dee Holtsclaw ------------------------------------------------------ Not natively, no. But have you tried this? http://www.blackfiveservices.co.uk/separate.shtml And that was the 2nd result: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gimp+cmyk I call BS -- Above is the entirety of the message body where I was giving a direct response to a specific issue. A reply to this with an opinion, crude at that, towards the product in general is flaming. It would have been different if the post had direct criticism, based on first-hand experience, of the plugin mentioned (but that was not the case).

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ Gimp isn't really made to replace Photoshop. It's made for people like me who just don't need everything that Photoshop does. Without the Gimp I would be forced to buy an expensive piece of software that has far many uses than I need. There's no middle ground between Photoshop and "no Photoshop" really. Gimp is it. Personally I love it and it doesn't suck, no matter how useful it is to you. It is actually a fine piece of software with many many lines of code. Some coders poured their heart into making it and giving it away for free. Just because it doesn't do everything you need, doesn't mean it sucks. I find it very useful, as I'm sure many other people do. Is it a replacement for Photoshop? No. There's plenty of people who need a program like Photoshop but don't have to use it daily. Those people should try the Gimp. With people saying "it sucks", however, they won't give it a shot, or they will think that it is sub-par. Just my $0.02. -Randy

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ besides if it doesn't have feature you think it needs , write the code and submit! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Yates" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 9:01:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] OpenSource alternatives Gimp isn't really made to replace Photoshop. It's made for people like me who just don't need everything that Photoshop does. Without the Gimp I would be forced to buy an expensive piece of software that has far many uses than I need. There's no middle ground between Photoshop and "no Photoshop" really. Gimp is it. Personally I love it and it doesn't suck, no matter how useful it is to you. It is actually a fine piece of software with many many lines of code. Some coders poured their heart into making it and giving it away for free. Just because it doesn't do everything you need, doesn't mean it sucks. I find it very useful, as I'm sure many other people do. Is it a replacement for Photoshop? No. There's plenty of people who need a program like Photoshop but don't have to use it daily. Those people should try the Gimp. With people saying "it sucks", however, they won't give it a shot, or they will think that it is sub-par. Just my $0.02. -Randy Not natively, no. But have you tried this? http://www.blackfiveservices.co.uk/separate.shtml And that was the 2nd result: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gimp+cmyk I call BS -- Above is the entirety of the message body where I was giving a direct response to a specific issue. A reply to this with an opinion, crude at that, towards the product in general is flaming. It would have been different if the post had direct criticism, based on first-hand experience, of the plugin mentioned (but that was not the case).

=============================================================== From: Dee Holtsclaw ------------------------------------------------------ +5, applies to all OSS.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Yeah. Because everyone knows how to code, and has the time, resources, and drive to do so. Spend a year learning how to code, along with a few hundred bucks for books, classes, seminars, then another 3 months learning how a specific project works - carefully pouring through the code so as not to break anything - and then another 2 months actually writing the code to solve the problem. OOPS! They forked, and now are using FORTRAN. Your code is obsolete. Oh, and that job you needed the CMYK for - fired you because you were supposed to have that project done 15 months ago, and you spend all your time studying code, and your job is designing carpets. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ Your sarcasm holds no weight to the point that was being made. If you require Photoshop, use it. Don't talk down to people who find that Gimp does everything they need. We have all agreed that the Gimp isn't a replacement for Photoshop. My point was that it doesn't "suck". It's a great piece of software for anyone that doesn't need/want Photoshop. Say that it doesn't replace Photoshop. That's a valid point. It's still a very powerful piece of software. I'd dare say more people don't post on this list because of attitudes like this. -Randy

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I didn't say GIMP sucks - that was someone else. Don't get mad at me for something that I didn't say. Re-read the thread - I haven't attacked any open source project. I have said that no open source project - nor collection of projects - that I have ever come across come close to matching the power of Adobe Creative Suite, but that's not the same as saying

=============================================================== From: William Wade ------------------------------------------------------ I agree. Perhaps it should change to "hire someone to code it for you." *smile* Then we could get more work! Seriously, perhaps OSS projects need to make it easier for normal people to create and contribute to bounties? Something like kickstarter for features? sn't but piss

=============================================================== From: William Wade ------------------------------------------------------ Just as a note, but I guess that most folks who would not post on the list due to attitudes like this are not likely to read this far down in a thread. Also this is not just a "problem" on OSS boards and loops. My wife is a part of a Catholic NFP forum and the same stuff happens there. As much as perhaps the wording should have originally been "Gimp sucks for my needs." In my case Gimp (2.7.2) rocks and I find it *gasp* easier to get around in than Photoshop (Note that I learned on Gimp 2.2 and 2.4...) Either way there are some of us younger folk using OSS first. So for us we would have to post looking for a "more powerful proprietary solution." Assuming it was needed.

=============================================================== From: Randy Yates ------------------------------------------------------ You're right, you didn't say the "it sucks" comment. The response of "code it yourself" was a reply to the "it sucks" comment however, and actually I think it is a good response to someone saying that a massive piece of software like the Gimp "sucks". If someone thinks the Gimp sucks, they should really try their hand at coding something like that or even adding a small feature to it. Then they may have a good understanding of the amazing amount of work that has went into making the Gimp a great piece of software. -Randy

=============================================================== From: Aaron welch ------------------------------------------------------ As I normally just ignore "Chadisms" this one is too far. There is nothing really constructive or useful about this comment other than inciting more outrage from the group at large. Lets focus on facts and info, not inflammatory rhetoric with no real point or purpose. -AW

=============================================================== From: Dave Brockman ------------------------------------------------------ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've seen several OSS applications that have a "bounty" or "sponsor a feature" type process where those requests that receive funding get higher priority on the work list. Having survived making tiny changes to other peoples' code, or minor functionality extensions, I think this is a great idea, especially for semi-established projects. Regards, dtb -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk33cNgACgkQABP1RO+tr2QcnACggqjoUqug50Vo/MYqZV/gIPPh so4An0DsC9x7NdQAFWsjk5k8wKgjBETm =5Uw2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ In either case your dependent on someone to provide the program. At least with opensource you can get involved. project management is just like company management, it varies. Some are run well others are not. But if you really care enough bitch about something , do something about. Or help someone who is. A truism in life not just software. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:07:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] OpenSource alternatives I didn't say GIMP sucks - that was someone else. Don't get mad at me for something that I didn't say. Re-read the thread - I haven't attacked any open source project. I have said that no open source project - nor collection of projects - that I have ever come across come close to matching the power of Adobe Creative Suite, but that's not the same as saying

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ [mega-snip] [snip] True. I couldn't write a line of *useful* code to save my life. Lord knows I'd love to learn, I just can't do the "teach yourself" thing and haven't got the time or money to go to school to learn to code. I've tried getting Mike to teach me, but, well...let's just say our personalities didn't make for a good student/teacher relationship. :D Awhile back when someone was having a Chugalug C++ programming course at Chatt State I tried to learn there, but was frustrated as a)there was no textbook and b)the class was taught bass-ackwards from the way most classes are taught -- i.e you are supposed to study what will be discussed in the next class, not what you just went over in the previous class. Some folks can handle that, I couldn't. Not saying that was "bad" just that I couldn't learn that way. Suffice it to say, if I *did* know how to program, I would try to help out, but I can't even write a "hello, world" app. :D

=============================================================== From: John Aldrich ------------------------------------------------------ Yeah... I've used Gimp myself for some minor photo editing, etc. Very nice for an "end-user" / hobbyist app. Not so good for a "professional" photo editing app, IMNSHO.