So possibly no more Mac OS X?

From: Ben Romines 
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What i was reading on slashdot says there thinking about phasing Mac
OS X out; but what baffles me is so many people like graphic designers
and other developers use macs to do there work on. Personally I'm
working on a hackintosh system because i like OS X. I think that
trying to use iOS on a iMac or Macbook make it pointless to have one.
I guess what i really want to know is why are company's going to this
style of system. Microsoft is even doing this, if you have seen the
early stuff about Windows 8 it looks similar to there phone operating
system.

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ I think that is bogus. Apple supposedly did that deliberately so that you could not do a bad port of an OSX app over to iOS and it look bad. Thats what I read anyway. That implies Apple sees them as two related but different ecosystems or platforms. But Dan , Lisa and others can speak to with more knowledge. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Romines" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 5:45:36 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [Chugalug] So possibly no more Mac OS X? What i was reading on slashdot says there thinking about phasing Mac OS X out; but what baffles me is so many people like graphic designers and other developers use macs to do there work on. Personally I'm working on a hackintosh system because i like OS X. I think that trying to use iOS on a iMac or Macbook make it pointless to have one. I guess what i really want to know is why are company's going to this style of system. Microsoft is even doing this, if you have seen the early stuff about Windows 8 it looks similar to there phone operating system.

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ This article is terrible and you should feel bad for posting it. Mac OS isn't going anywhere. In about 5 years we'll be talking about Mac OS 11. What is happening is there is a user experience convergence going on between iOS and Mac OS -- that is, as the market focuses on tablets and touch-oriented interfaces, you'll see a converged interface that will probably incorporate a windowless, multi-tasking, grid-like and touch-oriented desktop experience. Apple, unlike any other company that's trying to converge "touch oriented" and "desktop environment" (I'm looking at you Microsoft and Canonical) will probably do it right. --Cameron

=============================================================== From: Aaron welch ------------------------------------------------------ The architectures are different, but the platforms are merging. I like the whole idea of the App store on OSX making it easy for me to install software and manage updates. Reminds me of a sexier version of aptitude on Ubuntu. We (as in Rogue Robot) have ALOT invested with the Apple platforms due to our products for businesses and consumers, so I am a bit jaded about it. :+) -AW

=============================================================== From: Aaron welch ------------------------------------------------------ +5 for relevance Totally agree. What is it with "tech" journalists stirring $hit up with B$ like this here lately? -AW

=============================================================== From: Lisa Ridley ------------------------------------------------------ I'm in SF at WWDC, and yes, the long term plan is to merge the two Operating= systems. This is not new news as it was announced last year, and steps are= being taken to make that happen with the next release of iOS and OSX. Don'= t know exactly when the target date for completion of the process is, though= . Can't say any more than that due to NDA as an Apple platform developer. Sent from my iPad t stack (developers jump in here please). of an OSX app over to iOS and it look bad. ifferent ecosystems or platforms.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ It's meaningless FUD. The next version of OS X (which was just detailed 2 days ago, and comes out next month) will have some features from iOS - but it's certainly not being turned into iOS. Everything that ran on Tiger, Leopard, etc. still runs on Lion - and without a third party emulator, or first party development kit, none of the iOS apps run on it. Steve Jobs, when presenting iCloud, Apple's new cloud-based syncing system, he did talk about the Mac being "downgraded to a device" - but it was in the context of something like [paraphrasing here] "10 years ago, Apple envisioned the Mac as the hub of your digital life - that's where all your digital stuff was stored (pictures, music, videos, documents, etc.) - so you would sync your other devices with your Mac. Now, with iCloud, the Mac has been downgraded to just another device, alongside your iPad, iPod, and iPhone - and the Cloud becomes the hub." It had absolutely nothing to do with changing the OS. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ The Mac App Store is basically the Ubuntu Software Center, which has been out since 2009: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ubuntu

=============================================================== From: Dan Lyke ------------------------------------------------------ On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 09:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Rod-Lists wrote: I've done a little Cocoa development. It's close but different on the two platforms, there's no facility for the sorts of resources that aren't shared (ie: menu bars), so, yeah, you have to do a little thinking about code. I have no idea about why Apple's motivations in keeping the platforms somewhat separate, there's probably a good bit of "we're doing cool stuff, they're doing cool stuff, we'll sort the differences later". Dan

=============================================================== From: Lisa Ridley ------------------------------------------------------ I'm really baffled at the opinions that the two operating systems must = remain separate, and that its impossible for them to ever meet. I'm not = a hardware geek, but.... Think about that. Think about the architecture of today's mobile = devices vs. the architecture of today's computers. Do you really think = they're not converging? As I type this message on a MacBook Air, I beg = to differ. They are converging. The new Android devices released this year are running at 1GHz, with = half a gig of RAM; the iPad has had 64G of internal persistent storage = available since its inception. The iPad is not that much smaller than = my MacBook Air. Dual core is here on mobile devices; QuadCore is coming = to mobile devices in the next year or so. Put cellular data capabilities in my laptop, where I don't have to = tether for connectivity, and I'm a happy camper. Wait, that would = pretty close to an iPad with an external keyboard, wouldn't it? When I bought my MacBook Air, I was concerned about performance given = that it's running a 2+GHz dual-core processor. The fast RAM combined = with the SSD persistent storage makes this a non-issue. Haven't tried = to run a virtual machine on it, but then again, don't really need to do = that either. iPad2: A5 dual core processor, 512M RAM, small footprint OS, 64G = persistent storage. MacBook Air: Intel Dual core, 4G RAM, larger footprint OS, 256G = persistent storage. Not so farfetched, IMHO.

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ No. It's not. The Mac App Store is different from Ubuntu Software Center for one major reason - it's a Store. You buy software there. While there are free apps in the Mac App Store, it's primarily a money making tool. (Most of the "free" apps have ads, or are the 2011 version of Shareware/Nagware - "if you liked the first level, you'll love the 23 other levels you can't play for free!" That or they are the client/hosts of some sort of a paid service.) The distinction may seem small, but it is HUGE. Even though the Mac App Store has only been around a few months, it's already the LARGEST SOFTWARE RETAIL SOURCE IN THE WORLD. Outselling Walmart, Best Buy, and every single other source of paid software on earth. link - http://gigaom.com/apple/mac-app-store-is-a-big-success/ Being able to *buy* software from one place that is built into your computer (a model that has its roots of course in the iOS App Store, and iTunes itself even before that) is a giant money maker. I don't have the stats to back this up, but I would be shocked if Apple wasn't making most of its money through its various software based stores, (Mac App Store, iOS App Store, iTunes, iBookstore). In fact, the next release of Mac OS X - Lion (10.7 if you prefer numbers to cats) - is going to be available *only* through the Mac App Store (or pre-installed on your Mac). That's the upgrade anyway, I would imagine that they will include restore discs with new Macs, but they didn't mention that. Linux has had various more-or-less centralized (in apparence anyway) locations for web-based installation and updates for software for a lot longer than Ubuntu's Software Center - but the difference of providing a way for customers to buy their software from one place on their computer / and conversely for developers to promote and sell their software to consumers - that is what is "some revolutionary new thing" about the Mac App Store. If you want to get right down to it, Apple has had first and third party software available from their website for a very long time - I'd say at least a decade. http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/ Another difference, since the Mac App Store is a money making venture - I haven't seen any open source software on it. Unlike the downloads section of the apple.com website. No OpenOffice.org (or LibreOffice) no GIMP, no Audacity.... All of which were/are on the downloads site. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Sean Brewer ------------------------------------------------------ Since Maverick Meerkat (Oct. 2010 I think) you have been able to purchase software from the Ubuntu Software Center. The only real differences between the Mac App Store and the Ubuntu Software Center is that Apple has more funding, software that people are willing to pay for, and name recognition to get people to use it. That's it, period. I love Macs and OS X, but the Apple personality cult really bugs me, a lot. apps you e.) p E ngle ter s to to that at. way d - ion no ary

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Couldn't be that the software is just, you know, better. Nah, that couldn't be it at all. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ No just the shiny and the polish. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:22:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] So possibly no more Mac OS X? Couldn't be that the software is just, you know, better. Nah, that couldn't be it at all. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Yep, because presentation means nothing. Which is why 99.99% of all open source projects look like crap. Including Ubuntu. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Ryan Macy ------------------------------------------------------ Chad you seem very angry today...

=============================================================== From: Kenneth Ratliff ------------------------------------------------------ Article is total and utter bull. Think about it for a second -=20 Get rid of Mac OS X, and what are people going to develop all those apps = on? I knew when Steve said 'we're demoting the PC/Mac' during the keynote = people were going to take it the wrong way. Right now, in order to get your iDevices all synced up, you have to go = back to something running iTunes. This means that some desktop/laptop = occupies the role of content overlord. All Steve meant by the demotion = bit is that the iCloud will remove that role from the computer and make = the computer just another device.=20 How the hell people get the end of OS X out of that tells me that they = don't have any brain cells firing, or they're really bored

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly. When people see some things as good, other things become bad. Being and non-being create each other. Difficult and easy support each other. Long and short define each other. High and low depend on each other. Before and after follow each other. Therefore the Master acts without doing anything and teaches without saying anything. Things arise and she lets them come; things disappear and she lets them go. She has but doesn't possess, acts but doesn't expect. When her work is done, she forgets it. That is why it lasts forever. Second Verse-Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 3:26:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] So possibly no more Mac OS X? Yep, because presentation means nothing. Which is why 99.99% of all open source projects look like crap. Including Ubuntu. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya No just the shiny and the polish. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" < chad78@gmail.com > To: "CHUGALUG" < chugalug@chugalug.org > Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:22:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] So possibly no more Mac OS X? Couldn't be that the software is just, you know, better. Nah, that couldn't be it at all. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ Just become something is old and famous and sounds "deep" doesn't mean it's right, or even makes any sense whatsoever. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Lisa Ridley ------------------------------------------------------ (Goosesteps out of iCloud technical presentation) I've been indoctrinated by the my superior, Herr Steve, to instruct you to s= top feeding the trolls. Heil Jobs!! (Goosesteps back into iCloud technical presentation) Sent from my iPad s right, or even makes any sense whatsoever. ry 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya ource projects look like crap. ry 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya ry 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ point of order. Mussolini was a fascist. Hitler and the nazi's were at least an order magnitude beyond fascists. Now if you will excuse me I have to write a mac virus that turns OSX & iOS ubuntu earth tones. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Ridley" To: "CHUGALUG" Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 7:04:13 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] So possibly no more Mac OS X? (Goosesteps out of iCloud technical presentation) I've been indoctrinated by the my superior, Herr Steve, to instruct you to stop feeding the trolls. Heil Jobs!! (Goosesteps back into iCloud technical presentation) Sent from my iPad Just become something is old and famous and sounds "deep" doesn't mean it's right, or even makes any sense whatsoever. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly. When people see some things as good, other things become bad. Being and non-being create each other. Difficult and easy support each other. Long and short define each other. High and low depend on each other. Before and after follow each other. Therefore the Master acts without doing anything and teaches without saying anything. Things arise and she lets them come; things disappear and she lets them go. She has but doesn't possess, acts but doesn't expect. When her work is done, she forgets it. That is why it lasts forever. Second Verse-Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" < chad78@gmail.com > To: "CHUGALUG" < chugalug@chugalug.org > Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 3:26:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] So possibly no more Mac OS X? Yep, because presentation means nothing. Which is why 99.99% of all open source projects look like crap. Including Ubuntu. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya No just the shiny and the polish. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Smith" < chad78@gmail.com > To: "CHUGALUG" < chugalug@chugalug.org > Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 12:22:21 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Chugalug] So possibly no more Mac OS X? Couldn't be that the software is just, you know, better. Nah, that couldn't be it at all. - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Ken Ratliff ------------------------------------------------------ Hrm, I'm submitting a ticket. The Godwin Rule seems to no longer be applicable. Must be a network misconfiguration.

=============================================================== From: James Nylen ------------------------------------------------------ You should make sure it puts the window buttons on the left too.

=============================================================== From: Aaron welch ------------------------------------------------------ I liked the quote and am saddened that Chad missed the point entirely. The point was and is that people will always fall to one side of the coin or another. If you like black, white will not do. If you love the cold, you will hate the heat. If you like Apple... everything else just does not measure up. I own more Macs than anyone on the list (including Ed) and I do not come off sounding like an Apple Zealot. Not trying to brag (lost on this list anyhow), but making the point that being the pro-Apple person I am still cannot relate to Chad on 90% of what he says. This carries through for most of the sh!t I read on the interwebs about how Apple is the be all end all of tech companies. Apple is INCREDIBLY good at marketing. I seriously think Steve Jobs could package sweet smelling stuff from the toilet and call it iPoo and people would stand in line to buy it. Apple is getting a bunch of things right were others are lacking, not wrong... just lacking. I personally like the framework Apple has created for developers as we are developing apps for small business and really see the benefits of that 30% they take. I do not have to package, ship, track, deal with billing, or any of the other mess that normally comes with distributing software. I also am guaranteed that if I play by the rules my code will work on MILLIONS of devices throughout the world. So from a business perspective... GO APPLE! From a consumer perspective I cannot stand some of the stupid things Apple makes me do to continue to use their products, but that is another rant for another day. -AW

=============================================================== From: Chad Smith ------------------------------------------------------ I do know that there is some amount of variance of opinions on what "beautiful" is - but it is a scientific fact that there is something hardwired into our brains that is - intrinsically and universally "Beautiful" - and conversely there are things that are intrinsically and universally "ugly". These ideals have been tested on people from all walks of life, all ages, cultural backgrounds, societal strata, etc. - even on infants, so any socio-cultural pressures would not have had any way to take hold, and yet things like symmetry and smooth lines are universally preferred to their opposite. "Different strokes for different folks" only goes so far. My point - about how ugly most open source projects are - is because the nerds who make them purposefully choose to ignore design norms, and refuse to put the efforts into making their work look good because "That's a waste of time". They'd rather port their software to some ancient niche operating system or some backwards no-longer-produced CPU than clean up their user interface. And, hey, it's their project, it's their right to make those decisions. And I'm sure the 12 other nerds who have those old Acorn 128s still plugged up in their mother's basement are happy to have yet another word processor and media player - no matter how ugly they are. (note: I don't know or care if there is such a thing as a Acorn 128.) The average person, who knows and cares a lot more about how a program looks and how they interact with it than they ever will the mechanics behind the scenes, however, would be a million times more likely to use and keep using the free program if it looked and worked like it intrinsically "should" - than knowing that some geek can use it on all 53 of his old junk computers. Yes, a lot of Apple's success is because of marketing. I'd rather buy 12 knock-off media players that have 10 times the functionality of an iPod Classic for 10% of the price, than I would 1 iPod. (In fact, I pretty much have. I don't know if the exact number is 12, though. And I do have an iPod Touch, but that's a different beast entirely than all the other iPods.) But their computers, their operating system - it is intrinsically better than any other operating system I have ever used. I starting buying Mac computers - not because of marketing - but because I started working somewhere that was a Mac shop, and I had to use them. I was a Windows user from 3.1 to XP, and I had starting trying Linux because of the horror show that was Windows ME. But once I used Mac OS X - there was no going back. I didn't buy them because I listened to Steve Jobs - or because of their beautiful retail stores - or their minimalistic commercials. It was, and is, 100% user experience. And it has nothing to do with it being "shiny". All operating systems are shiny (other than maybe those on eink readers) since they work through glowing computer screens. If it didn't shine, you wouldn't see it. Throwing that word around just shows your lack of original thought. One more thing - for the better part of a decade I have paid my bills and feed myself (and others) because there is value in the way something looks and how users interact with it. If I didn't believe in the intrinsic value of design, I would not do what I do every day. When you belittle the value of aesthetics, I take it personally, because it *is* personal. Attractive design, intuitive interface, easy to understand and use controls... you can have the powerful software program in the universe, capable of amazing things - but if the user doesn't have a clue how to use it, or can't stand to look at it long enough to figure it out, who cares? The opposite is also true, a beautifully crafted useless program is still useless. Both have to be there to some degree for the software to have true worth. (I almost said a beautifully crafted rock is still a rock - then I realized how much people pay for pretty rocks, which further enforces the intrinsic value and universality of beauty. But, I digress.) - Chad W Smith "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya

=============================================================== From: Ed King ------------------------------------------------------ my real name is Ed Jobs

=============================================================== From: Kenneth Ratliff ------------------------------------------------------ So are you a bastard son, or just a bastard? *evilgrin*

=============================================================== From: Ed King ------------------------------------------------------ iBastard

=============================================================== From: Cameron Kilgore ------------------------------------------------------ You mean the dock. --Cameron

=============================================================== From: Rod-Lists ------------------------------------------------------ ----- "Chad Smith" wrote: No they don't purposefully ignore design standards. Unless they are trying new interface elements, Symphny OS, they don't care. They are engineers while apple is run by artists and marketing people . Engineers don't care how it looks just that it works. ask a word perfect jockey how a word processor should behave. Should is relative. Apple design teams are damn good at what they do. But if Steve's vision is different than mine, then I at least have linux to build my own vision. I like the choice. This is an OSX & Ubuntu house. So I'm no stranger to the Apple way. I just got thru walking a pawn shop owner thru an g3 iBook he had. But even Ubuntu is turning me of with Unity. I understand why they are going that direction and wish them success. They deserve it. But I will begin my little metapackage project for the Gumdrop Desktop I don't disagree however not everyone groks the Mac UI. trust me see my comments above.